From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat Jul 08 22:39:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 64398 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2006 05:39:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Jul 2006 05:39:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Jul 2006 05:39:01 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FzS0S-00082W-9H for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 08 Jul 2006 22:39:00 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FzRz3-00081e-0o; Sat, 08 Jul 2006 22:37:33 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 08 Jul 2006 22:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FzRyb-00081R-UB for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 08 Jul 2006 22:37:06 -0700 Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.177]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FzRya-00081J-14 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 08 Jul 2006 22:37:05 -0700 Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id i49so960833pyi for ; Sat, 08 Jul 2006 22:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.78.9 with SMTP id f9mr3435365pyl; Sat, 08 Jul 2006 22:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [70.224.74.45]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id n78sm1818099pyf.2006.07.08.22.37.02; Sat, 08 Jul 2006 22:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <44B0953D.5030604@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 01:33:49 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <44AF0325.2070709@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20060708132924.01bc7b00@cox.net> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060708132924.01bc7b00@cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) X-archive-position: 12012 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: hobyrne@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: Hugh O'Byrne From: Hugh O'Byrne Reply-To: hobyrne@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: ZOI and culture neutrality X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=N6kDiLt7FzG15fGo764FD6k1z5eLuxmKcxILaNlY9OAu7GTnAA X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26438 .ue.ua.auro'e Nora LeChevalier wrote: > I agree with .epkat. > > In addition (in particular), I believe that the use of ZOI in speech is > different from it's use in writing. See the beginning of the first post of this thread. I didn't have such examples as you describe below in mind when I wrote that, but of course in principle I agree. > In speech, it can be used to quote > non-speech sounds that do not have any representation in speech (play a > tape of thunder, pages rustling, etc). You take the idea even further than foreign languages. I have thought along such lines, but thought it would be *too* far to push the point (at least initially). I thought I would be even more dismissed if I were making points on a level *so* far removed from everyday Lojban. But you've brought it up, which is good. Keep in mind that I admit the usefulness of my approach is restricted: specifically, to those who write Lojban that they want another to be able to read aloud, and those who speak Lojban that want transcribers to be able to write precisely. But, as just a recommendation, it does not impose or restrict anything. If the speaker chooses the direct ZOI approach as you describe, that speaker is making a choice to make his speech impossible to transcribe precisely. I do not wish to take this freedom away from him. If transcription *is* a concern of the speaker, he can always choose another way to represent the sound (in words, "the sound of thunder", "the sound of paper rustling", etc.). So the point is moot, this person neither gains nor loses by my suggestion. > In writing, it can be used to > quote non-lerfu-based visual things (such as pictures ); in fact, I came > across (long ago) a short story whose "name" was a blot - very difficult > to add to the short story index I was keeping at the time. Indeed. The writer of this short story obviously did not intend for it to be read out loud. So this type of writer is also outside of the scope of my proposal. The recommendation would neither help nor harm him. As has been said before, Lojban has freedoms for ridiculousness; this is not in contradiction to its freedoms for precision. -- Good night, and have a rational tomorrow! mi'e .xius. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.