From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat Jul 08 11:19:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 62457 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2006 17:41:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jul 2006 17:41:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jul 2006 17:41:48 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FzGfA-0005QI-9E for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 08 Jul 2006 10:32:16 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FzGea-0005PO-4S; Sat, 08 Jul 2006 10:31:41 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 08 Jul 2006 10:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FzGe8-0005P5-Sh for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 08 Jul 2006 10:31:13 -0700 Received: from eastrmmtao01.cox.net ([68.230.240.38]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FzGe5-0005Os-Q0 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 08 Jul 2006 10:31:11 -0700 Received: from NORA-HP.cox.net ([24.250.99.39]) by eastrmmtao01.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.06.01 201-2131-130-101-20060113) with ESMTP id <20060708173107.CWAL17255.eastrmmtao01.cox.net@NORA-HP.cox.net> for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2006 13:31:07 -0400 Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20060708132924.01bc7b00@cox.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 13:31:04 -0400 In-Reply-To: References: <44AF0325.2070709@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) X-archive-position: 11997 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: noras@cox.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: Nora LeChevalier From: Nora LeChevalier Reply-To: noras@cox.net Subject: [lojban] Re: ZOI and culture neutrality X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=jydFsiOIBl_sn0Ckg1wi9qnWXvSrDTkiMtRpv64j8H7pb8j9TA X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26425 At 10:17 AM 7/8/2006, epkat. wrote: >On 7/7/06, Hugh O'Byrne wrote: >>Background: >> >>Lojban has a structure, the ZOI selma'o (CLL page 477). Within written >>Lojban, it provides a means of using an alternate orthography. This is >>advantageous, in that people who are familiar with alternate >>orthographies are free to use them if they wish. Within spoken Lojban, >>ZOI provides a means of distinguishing two words which not homophones, >>in their native language, but that when mapped onto the Lojban phonemes, >>would effectively become homophones. This is advantageous in that >>needless ambiguity is not enforced upon expressing foreign words in Lojban. >> >>Observation: >> >>Orthographies and phonemes are tied to culture. Lojban is intended to >>be culture-neutral (CLL page 3). Subtle loopholes arise. >> >>In writing a Lojban text, a Lojbanist familiar with an alternate >>orthography can choose to use it to make his job easier (e.g. by using >>the text "la'o dy. Goethe .dy."). In some cases, e.g. if he wishes to >>use a particular foreign word that either uses a sound not native to >>Lojban, or would be needlessly ambiguated as described above, the writer >>*must* use ZOI. >> >>Loophole one: Ideally, the writer (if he has taken enough care) should >>be able to give his text to *any* other Lojbanist, even one with *no* >>cultural (specifically, orthographic) knowledge outside of Lojban >>itself, and that second Lojbanist should be able to read aloud the text >>flawlessly. This is not the case with the current system. > >I disagree. I believe it is the case with the current system. Your >email is predicated on the idea that zoi and {la'o] transform the word >"Goethe" into a Lojban word, and therefore there is a Lojban word that >not everyone knows how to pronounce. That is not the case. "Goethe" is >not Lojban, even when it is included in the correct Lojban text "la'o >.dy. Goethe .dy." Such functions are inserting non-Lojban into Lojban. >Lojban speakers should always have the freedom to insert non-Lojban. > >Lojban is a language that makes a lot of sense, and yet it allows you >to speak complete nonsense as much as you wish. It is an unambigious >language which allows you to speak as ambiguously as you wish. It is >also a consistent language that allows you to insert inconsistencies >in the way that you have just pointed out. These freedoms are >features, not bugs. > >The freedom to insert various cultures into a culturally-neutral >language is identical to the way that religious neutrality allows us >the freedom to practice any religion we wish, by not mandating any one >of them. Multicultural racial neutrality in our society allows a >variety of cultures and ethnicities, by not mandating any one of them. >Lojban has words that open and close a string of text which would, >without those bracket words, be "rule-breaking" text. Lojban does not >force you to use those words. The measures you propose would mandate >one all-consuming, monolithic, heterogenous Lojban culture to replace >all other cultures. > >-epkat > > >To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org >with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if >you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. I agree with .epkat. In addition (in particular), I believe that the use of ZOI in speech is different from it's use in writing. In speech, it can be used to quote non-speech sounds that do not have any representation in speech (play a tape of thunder, pages rustling, etc). In writing, it can be used to quote non-lerfu-based visual things (such as pictures ); in fact, I came across (long ago) a short story whose "name" was a blot - very difficult to add to the short story index I was keeping at the time. mi'e noras. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.