From lojban-out@lojban.org Tue Jul 04 19:06:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 77717 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2006 01:55:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Jul 2006 01:55:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jul 2006 01:55:57 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FxwcL-0002uQ-RX for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 18:55:54 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fxwaa-0002sc-Co; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 18:54:04 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 04 Jul 2006 18:53:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fxwa8-0002sS-40 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 18:53:36 -0700 Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.182]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fxwa6-0002sK-D7 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 18:53:35 -0700 Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id d42so2021361pyd for ; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 18:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.134.12 with SMTP id l12mr2907290pyn; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 18:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.14.17 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 18:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560607041853r23562af0xad7f31422c8369dd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 22:53:33 -0300 In-Reply-To: <44AB0A80.7040702@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060704213716.99746.qmail@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <44AB0A80.7040702@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 11910 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: Lojban alphabets X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=REVpuGk0dbh20xMdjFf6awRLtTILyToUDZGA4WNj8bTgfS0g7g X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26336 Some thoughts on a featural alphabet for Lojban: 1- In principle, I like it as an idea. In practice, I don't see the community of Lojbanists adopting one in the short term, simply because it would be too impractical to do so. This could actually be a good thing, as it allows the designers of such an alphabet plenty of time to tinker with it without worrying that people will be learning a version that would then become obsolete. 2- In terms of efficiency of number of symbols to be learned, I don't think a lot is gained by going down to features. 2a- For vowels, there is no gain at all, as there are six vowels and six features: a, e, i, o, u, y and open/mid/close, front/central/back). One feature combination is unused (mid back) and three combinations constitute the same phoneme: /a/ is just open, whether front, central or back. 2b- For consonants, there are 19 consonants and 12 features (five points of articulation, five manners of articulation, and voiced/unvoiced), so while there is a slight gain in efficiency, it is not extremely significant. 3- One possible advantage of a featural alphabet that I don't think has been mentioned is that it might help with the learning of phonotactics. Some people have trouble recognizing which consonants are voiced and which are unvoiced for example, so if this was encoded in the character that represents the phoneme they would have an easier time knowing when they are required to insert a {y} in making a lujvo. There are a few other phonotactic rules that are based on features too. By the same token though, a featural alphabet would also have the disadvantage of exposing some other phonotactic rules as totally arbitrary :) mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.