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( [70.224.74.45]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id m78sm84514pye.2006.07.03.20.26.33; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 20:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <44A9DF38.7030108@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 23:23:36 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20060630232721.15247.qmail@web56404.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <44A5BC53.5040803@kli.org> <12d58c160606302046k5a8d7abbk4d747f36cbe6b8b@mail.gmail.com> <44A6B369.70006@gmail.com> <44A81F8B.3070900@kli.org> <44A90D05.1030701@gmail.com> <44A97EF5.6090009@kli.org> In-Reply-To: <44A97EF5.6090009@kli.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) X-archive-position: 11895 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: hobyrne@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: Hugh O'Byrne From: Hugh O'Byrne Reply-To: hobyrne@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: [hobyrne: Alphabet] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=REwUX52zGyy0DUfDoqQemoGtZFnHhovYagVRnDaivnLkqCWPpA X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26321 Mark E. Shoulson wrote: > Hugh O'Byrne wrote: > >> Confession of pettiness: I guess it's also partly vanity. Part of my >> attraction to VS is that it's exotic. It's strange, and new, and >> different, and the kind of thing that might be a plot element in a >> conspiracy novel. (I feel compelled to say, THERE IS NO PRIORY OF SION, > > Of course there isn't! Zion is built on hilltops, not on a prairie! :) *sigh*. This place feels like home. I find myself saying things like that at home, and I get exactly the same number of laughs: zero. :) >> Hm. Jay F. Kominek made a very good point to me that the Lojban >> alphabet is not *phonetic*, it is *phonemic*, and it is that way by >> design, and for a very good reason. > > This is really the point. VS is like IPA, meant to transcribe > *sounds*. It's phonetic. Most languages can be written in IPA, but > most would rather not be (and indeed are not). Even though we have this > powerful alphabet for writing sounds, still we invent other, simpler > writing systems for languages that have no writing system. Why? > Because IPA isn't suited for being a standard writing system. You could > use a few pieces of it and extremely broad transcription and make a > phonemic orthography out of it, but it's only barely IPA anymore, and > usually gets simplified to something with more common symbols. IPA is > useful for writing stuff down that really is tied to the phones, not the > phonemes. It is NOT a phonemic alphabet (esp. since phonemes are > language-dependent). For a writing system, Lojban, like most other > languages, doesn't need IPA. VS is designed to fill the exact same role > that IPA later came to fill. So Lojban doesn't need VS *as its writing > system* any more than it needs IPA. Good summary. Agreed on all points. (Except, to make room for later, when I change my mind: agreed that Lojban doesn't need VS *as its _primary_ (phonemic) writing system*) Wow. I almost missed that point. IPA came *after* VS? Did the creators of IPA know about VS? Did they think they were improving on it? Wow. > Now... setting up a subset of VS to be used phonemically for writing > Lojban is another matter, and no sillier than many of the other > alternate orthographies we like to play with. Aww. I like being sillier sometimes. *pout* :) > And using VS instead of > IPA when a phonetic alphabet is called for, in Lojban context or not, is > also a worthy notion. Yay! People are agreeing with me! You *like* me! You *really* *like* me! Wow. I sound pathetic. :) Just trying to keep the tone light. > I think that's what riled folks, the idea of > using a phonetic alphabet for Lojban instead of a phonemic one. I think there's more to it than that... I'll get into it later. I formally declare the Quest for VS As A Primary Alphabet in Lojban, dead. Since I started the quest, I have that authority. I joyously announce the opening of the Quest for An RPA As A Primary Alphabet in Lojban! >> I would love if a lingust (phonetologist, if there is such a thing, or >> word) would interview a ventriloquist, a voice actor, an impersonator, a >> comedy vocalist; get their inputs on VS and Lhoerr and related >> concepts, how sounds are made in the mouth, and worked with that for a >> while. These people may have insights that would lead to a yet more >> complete map of sound-space. When a guy makes a sound like dripping >> water, what manner of IPA symbol would that be? :) > > A phonetician. I think there are still some. Some of the IPA symbols > for "disordered speech" have some of those weird sounds. VS can manage > some of them too. > > The guys working with these things *also* think alot about sounds and > how they're made, and they're smarter than you might think. Yeah, I'd actually be disappointed if some phonetician *hadn't* already thought of interviewing a ventriloquist. I guess I was expressing a personal wish that I could see for myself the ways in which vocalists have changed the shape of phonetician's perceptions of the phonetic landscape, get some of their insights into the skills of making sounds. I would find it fascinating. I didn't express that at all well, the way I wrote it. Oops. >> [VS] > > It's the wrong tool for the job, even for Lojban 2.0, as we saw above. Agreed. See New Quest. > However, it might be the right tool for a *different* job as part of > Lojban. Lojban currently does not specify a phonetic notation. Maybe > someday that might be considered within the purview of the language, and > VS/Lhoerr would be the tool for that. I think if Lojban lasts (which I hope and believe it will), it is *inevitable* that someday it *will* fall within the purview of the language. Does anyone think otherwise? Today, for example, is a perfectly good 'someday'. Better today, than after the lack is felt. The Quest for VS, Or Lhoerr, Or Something Like It, As An Official *Phonetic* Alphabet, Not To Replace The Phonemic Alphabet(s), of Lojban is born! Yay! Two quests for one! I think I like this game! :) >> Lojban is *cool*. That makes it good, and fun. VS and Lhoerr are >> cool. (Maybe not as exciting, though.) The two both embody insightful, >> structural representation of communication, at different levels. The >> two together would be cool on top of cool. And who doesn't want cool on >> top of cool?!! :) > > Actually, you'd be surprised. A lot of people, even among us weirdos > who populate Lojban lists, have all kinds of motivations. Some people > are more motivated by practical ends, and see "cool" as just a > distraction making it even harder to push Lojban's acceptance. And a > lot of us *like* cool. And there's always some conflict of desires > between the groups. Hmm. I hadn't thought of it in that way. Cool is attractive. Getting in the way of practical ends... Yes, I can see that in the short term. And someone *does* need to think of the short term, because obviously I don't. What do I mean by long-term? Maybe some of my motivation isn't clear. I figure we'll all be dust by the time Lojban *really* comes into its own. *That's* how long I want Lojban to last. So, to be blunt, I don't really give a crap what you or I know or don't know, what we find comfortable and normal, in considering the long-term. *This*, I think, is a big issue people are uncomfortable with. But bear with me. It's gedankenexperiment time! Imagine everyone on planet X uses the Lojban language exactly as it is now. Imagine everyone on planet Y uses the Lojban language with some kind of RPA. Spaceships from each planet meet for the first time in space, and the crews miraculously discover they *speak* the same language - so, they strike up a conversation. Then they start passing written messages to each other, and discover they *write* the language differently. This is the question. Which is more likely, that the Xians are impressed and enamoured of the Yster alphabet, or the Ysters think the Xians' alphabet is more appealing? *That's* the kind of thing I'd consider a good test for long-term trends. If two solutions to a problem (maybe I should say 'requirement': the requirement of a written representation for the spoken sounds) are put in direct competition, all other things being equal, and one is clearly a winner, well... that one is better. Clarification: It has more staying power. Personally, I have no doubt many Xian linguists will conk themselves on the head and say "Why didn't *we* think of that?", and many Yster linguists will think "tut-tut, what a shame, what a primitive culture". ('Many' meaning 'more on this planet than are thinking the same kind of thing on the other planet'.) Does anyone think the outcome could be otherwise? If so, you need to explain it to me, because I just can't see how it could not be the way I describe. I'm not trying to be accusatory here, it's all on me, I'm saying I lack the facility to understand, please help me! I *want* to understand all aspects of this issue. (Wierdos? Did someone say wierdos? Who, me?) mi'e .xius. -- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.