From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Aug 19 09:28:03 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 19 Aug 2006 09:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1GETfk-0003gM-14 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 09:27:44 -0700 Received: from mxsf21.cluster1.charter.net ([209.225.28.221]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1GETff-0003gD-E1 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 09:27:43 -0700 Received: from mxip18a.cluster1.charter.net (mxip18a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.148]) by mxsf21.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k7JGRZGP018215 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2006 12:27:35 -0400 Received: from 66-188-5-53.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com (HELO [192.168.123.137]) ([66.188.5.53]) by mxip18a.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 19 Aug 2006 12:27:35 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.08,147,1154923200"; d="scan'208"; a="754320324:sNHT25068302" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) In-Reply-To: <200608190832.18950.tim.thelion@gmail.com> References: <38903270.20060819143600@mail.ru> <44E710A1.6070804@lojban.org> <200608190832.18950.tim.thelion@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alex Martini Subject: [lojban] Re: No Italy Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 12:27:38 -0400 To: lojban-list@lojban.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 12501 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: alexjm@umich.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Actually, neither is a dialect of the other. Italian, French, Portugese, Spanish, and the other Romance languages are more like siblings than dialects of eachother. In the beginning, there was Classical Latin -- the 'proper' or 'formal' Latin of the Roman conquerors, from which came Vernacular Latin (also called Vulgar Latin) -- the Latin of the common people. As it mixed with the local dying languages, it formed dialects which became less and less like eachother over time. Spanish got a heavy dallop of Arabic mixed in, which the others missed, from being occupied by the Moors. So, calling either a dialect of the other is incorrect. Honestly, most languages are more of a spectrum -- a fact which was much more obvious in centuries past before formalization of language was so strong. I think the point being made was that Spanish is the representative of the Latin decended languages (Romance), so we *could* refer to Italian in terms of Spanish. Not that anybody reccommends this though. I prefer the lujvo or fu'ivla myself. mu'omi'e.aleks. On Aug 19, 2006, at 11:32 AM, Timothy Hobbs wrote: > that seems a bit rude. I am preity sure it is the other way > around. (spanish > is a dialect of italian.). It is also quite incorrect. You could > have new > latin and western new latin, BUT NOT EASTERN SPANISH! It is just > plain > wrong. and also eastern spanish would not properly represent the > cultures > involved. and seems quite offensive. (ie, genericide of celibrated > diferences). > > I don't accualy know anything. that responce was wholy from the > emotional > side of my brain. > > On Saturday 19 August 2006 06:22, Bob LeChevalier wrote: >> Yanis Batura wrote: >>> I wonder why there is no gismu for Italy/Italian while there are >>> {jordo}, {filso}, {libjo}, {lubno}. I think Italians can provide >>> 1000 >>> times more Lojbanists than the countries pertaining to the latter >>> four >>> gismu. >> >> Arguably you could make a lujvo from latmo (and indeed that was >> our idea >> at the time). >> >> The answer to your question is that Italy does not speak one of the 6 >> source languages, whereas the four you mentioned do. Based solely on >> cultural neutrality, it was difficult to find a reason NOT to make a >> gismu for any country with a substantial number of Arabic speakers, >> especially since Arabic qualified as one of our 6 languages only by >> counting the speakers in the many different countries that spoke the >> language. >> >> If you want to be really culturally obtuse, you could call Italian >> "eastern-Spanish", since we almost counted Italian as a dialect of >> Spanish for weighting purposes in the language populations %^) >> >> Or you can make a fu'ivla, which has been the idea ever since we >> worked >> out a system for fu'ivla lujvo. >> >> lojbab >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list- >> request@lojban.org >> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/ >> lsg2/, or if >> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > -- > -- > Timothy Hobbs > tim.thelion@gmail.com > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list- > request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, > or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.