From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Aug 20 21:42:22 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 20 Aug 2006 21:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1GF1bw-0001Yh-5b for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 21:42:04 -0700 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.186]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1GF1bs-0001YO-P4 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 21:42:03 -0700 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id m19so2108489nfc for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 21:41:59 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=TEKIzGUriVbq8SqVvMc9fHJijYU/UGRanVMJpbtBIID6CreLPc9xpQJ3GvRYIpZ0NWYH+BlsKnasVS4NUldaUBgxDQd48Fyqld4dJpnwRWp4JWugQegWGHcMbb9//ZBPt/Mmlu/tUN0Q1Rw5xwnHM0EBEl4hztSWZ1dzjiOc08I= Received: by 10.49.20.5 with SMTP id x5mr6993983nfi; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 21:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.23.10 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 21:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <492596e80608202141l46a8a328jde89823a87504557@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:41:58 +0800 From: "Wang Xuerui" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Intermediate English In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_38468_19761932.1156135318880" References: <997079364.20060820150033@mail.ru> <492596e80608200331j94962f8h880b999430ebaaa8@mail.gmail.com> <1427226709.20060820175939@mail.ru> <492596e80608200457t4f1e33dau1746b148b90323f9@mail.gmail.com> <486241670.20060820195619@mail.ru> X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-archive-position: 12527 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: idontknw.wang@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list ------=_Part_38468_19761932.1156135318880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline .i mi je'a pensi lonu lo selsnu cu nitcu su'o lo lojbau 2006/8/21, Alex Martini : > > Native English speakers who don't care about punctuation, feel free to > skip this post. > > Originally: > > If I'm correct, nothing will happen; but if I had a mistake, please tell > me, and I'll definitely not to let it appear again. > > .i lo seltcidu mo'u binxo da poi lo drani cu cumki *First correction:* > > Feel free to tell me if there's anything needs improvement. > > Yanis' correction: > > Should be "if there anything needs improvement" or "if there is anything > in need of improvement". > > > By the way, the native English speakers (who actually *should* extend > helping hands to us in improving our English) prefer to leave it as it is. > Maybe they think it is not very polite to correct mistakes of others :) Or > maybe just tired of doing it before. > > This is a bit tricky, because it ventures around border of the Subjunctive > Mood, which most (modern) English speakers don't even know exists. The > original would be ok, but a little awkward, with {not to let it appear} > changed to {not let it appear}. However, the semicolon followed by {but} > isn't my preference -- I would drop the but or swap the semicolon to a > comma. That's secondary though, since commas can be argued about for hours. > > The first correction is my preference, with {there's anything needs > improvement} changed to {there's anything that needs improvement}. > > Yanis' first correction is worse, in my opinion. His second correction is > my preference out of all the corrections. My personal preference would be > {If I'm correct nothing will happen, but if I made a mistake please tell me > and I'll definitely not let it happen again.} > > Wang, I assume your first language uses the hanzi/kanji/hanja characters, > and thus commas are a new headache for you in English. > .ie .i lo jbebau pe mi cu jugbau .i mi ca cilre lo glibau .e lo lojbau .i ku'i mi na pensi lo za'i ta cu nabmi mi On a side note the comma is especially problematic in English, and probably > other languages that use the Latin script. This is because it is used for so > many different things. It is used for lists {I sent you a letter, an apple, > and a small piano.}. It is also used for for side comments {My brother, over > committed as always, couldn't spare the time to help.} which are pretty much > the same as relative clauses {The ambassador, who came yesterday, is named > John.}. (Although, the comma is only used in {poi} type restrictive relative > clauses, not in {noi} or {voi} type). > > Then there are the commas that join ideas in a sentance {I went to the > mall, and I bought some pants that didn't fit.} which can become a list of > sorts also {The florist called, and the butler quit, and the dog threw up, > and I quit.}. They are used incorrectly to join two sentances without a > connecting word (called a comma splice by teachers) {Some thing was done, I > liked it). That should be a semicolon, although you don't see too many > semicolons around anymore; people don't seem to know how to use them right > so they just leave them out. > > A book titled "Eats shoots and leaves" is a good, slightly funny, way to > polish up your grammar -- I would reccommend it to even native English > speakers. It gets it's name from a joke where a panda bear is described in > an encyclopedia as an animal that "eats shoots and leaves" and then the bear > "eats, shoots, and leaves" in a restuarant or bar. Without the commas, the > shoots and leaves are what it eats. With the commas shooting and leaving are > also things it does. > .i lo tanru noi do pu cusku cu zvati lo glitadycku pe mi And I think I've typed long enough... > .ie mu'o mi'e .aleks. > .i mi je'a nitcu lo stidi po do .i lo gapru cu xe fanva fu mi -- Feel free to tell me if I have any mistake. mu'o mi'e .uang. (I don't like {.uan.}, since I'm not ten thousand and my surname isn't Wan) ------=_Part_38468_19761932.1156135318880 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline .i mi je'a pensi lonu lo selsnu cu nitcu su'o lo lojbau

2006/8/21, Alex Martini < alexjm@umich.edu>:
Native English speakers who don't care about punctuation, feel free to skip this post.

Originally: 

If I'm correct, nothing will happen; but if I had a mistake, please tell me, and I'll definitely not to let it appear again.

.i lo seltcidu mo'u binxo da poi lo drani cu cumki

First correction:  

Feel free to tell me if there's anything needs improvement.

Yanis' correction:

Should be "if there anything needs improvement" or "if there is anything in need of improvement".


By the way, the native English speakers (who actually *should* extend helping hands to us in improving our English) prefer to leave it as it is. Maybe they think it is not very polite to correct mistakes of others :) Or maybe just tired of doing it before.

This is a bit tricky, because it ventures around border of the Subjunctive Mood, which most (modern) English speakers don't even know exists. The original would be ok, but a little awkward, with {not to let it appear} changed to {not let it appear}. However, the semicolon followed by {but} isn't my preference -- I would drop the but or swap the semicolon to a comma. That's secondary though, since commas can be argued about for hours.

The first correction is my preference, with {there's anything needs improvement} changed to {there's anything that needs improvement}.

Yanis' first correction is worse, in my opinion. His second correction is my preference out of all the corrections. My personal preference would be {If I'm correct nothing will happen, but if I made a mistake please tell me and I'll definitely not let it happen again.}

Wang, I assume your first language uses the hanzi/kanji/hanja characters, and thus commas are a new headache for you in English.

.ie .i lo jbebau pe mi cu jugbau .i mi ca cilre lo glibau .e lo lojbau .i ku'i mi na pensi lo za'i ta cu nabmi mi

On a side note the comma is especially problematic in English, and probably other languages that use the Latin script. This is because it is used for so many different things. It is used for lists {I sent you a letter, an apple, and a small piano.}. It is also used for for side comments {My brother, over committed as always, couldn't spare the time to help.} which are pretty much the same as relative clauses {The ambassador, who came yesterday, is named John.}. (Although, the comma is only used in {poi} type restrictive relative clauses, not in {noi} or {voi} type). 

Then there are the commas that join ideas in a sentance {I went to the mall, and I bought some pants that didn't fit.} which can become a list of sorts also {The florist called, and the butler quit, and the dog threw up, and I quit.}. They are used incorrectly to join two sentances without a connecting word (called a comma splice by teachers) {Some thing was done, I liked it). That should be a semicolon, although you don't see too many semicolons around anymore; people don't seem to know how to use them right so they just leave them out.

A book titled "Eats shoots and leaves" is a good, slightly funny, way to polish up your grammar -- I would reccommend it to even native English speakers. It gets it's name from a joke where a panda bear is described in an encyclopedia as an animal that "eats shoots and leaves" and then the bear "eats, shoots, and leaves" in a restuarant or bar. Without the commas, the shoots and leaves are what it eats. With the commas shooting and leaving are also things it does.

.i lo tanru noi do pu cusku cu zvati lo glitadycku pe mi

And I think I've typed long enough...

.ie

mu'o mi'e .aleks.

.i mi je'a nitcu lo stidi po do
.i lo gapru cu xe fanva fu mi

--
Feel free to tell me if I have any mistake.

mu'o mi'e .uang. (I don't like {.uan.}, since I'm not ten thousand and my surname isn't Wan) ------=_Part_38468_19761932.1156135318880-- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.