From lojban-out@lojban.org Sun Aug 20 21:01:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 98390 invoked from network); 21 Aug 2006 03:59:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Aug 2006 03:59:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Aug 2006 03:59:56 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1GF0vc-0000dW-Vn for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 20:58:21 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1GF0uS-0000cN-PK; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 20:57:12 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 20 Aug 2006 20:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1GF0tz-0000bs-6g for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 20:56:39 -0700 Received: from mxsf23.cluster1.charter.net ([209.225.28.223]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1GF0tt-0000be-Si for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 20:56:39 -0700 Received: from mxip21a.cluster1.charter.net (mxip21a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.151]) by mxsf23.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k7L3uVpm023590 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:56:32 -0400 Received: from 66-188-5-53.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com (HELO [192.168.123.137]) ([66.188.5.53]) by mxip21a.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 20 Aug 2006 23:56:32 -0400 In-Reply-To: <486241670.20060820195619@mail.ru> References: <997079364.20060820150033@mail.ru> <492596e80608200331j94962f8h880b999430ebaaa8@mail.gmail.com> <1427226709.20060820175939@mail.ru> <492596e80608200457t4f1e33dau1746b148b90323f9@mail.gmail.com> <486241670.20060820195619@mail.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2--415749777 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:56:32 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-archive-position: 12526 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: alexjm@umich.edu X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: Alex Martini From: Alex Martini Reply-To: alexjm@umich.edu Subject: [lojban] Re: Intermediate English X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=yWsVoFZ5cIvH1lA7LMVgSSl-9Mc5nwF3McXcuV-N661LMHeBzQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26955 --Apple-Mail-2--415749777 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Native English speakers who don't care about punctuation, feel free to skip this post. Originally: > If I'm correct, nothing will happen; but if I had a mistake, please > tell me, and I'll definitely not to let it appear again. First correction: > Feel free to tell me if there's anything needs improvement. Yanis' correction: > Should be "if there anything needs improvement" or "if there is > anything in need of improvement". > > > > By the way, the native English speakers (who actually *should* > extend helping hands to us in improving our English) prefer to > leave it as it is. Maybe they think it is not very polite to > correct mistakes of others :) Or maybe just tired of doing it before. This is a bit tricky, because it ventures around border of the Subjunctive Mood, which most (modern) English speakers don't even know exists. The original would be ok, but a little awkward, with {not to let it appear} changed to {not let it appear}. However, the semicolon followed by {but} isn't my preference -- I would drop the but or swap the semicolon to a comma. That's secondary though, since commas can be argued about for hours. The first correction is my preference, with {there's anything needs improvement} changed to {there's anything that needs improvement}. Yanis' first correction is worse, in my opinion. His second correction is my preference out of all the corrections. My personal preference would be {If I'm correct nothing will happen, but if I made a mistake please tell me and I'll definitely not let it happen again.} Wang, I assume your first language uses the hanzi/kanji/hanja characters, and thus commas are a new headache for you in English. On a side note the comma is especially problematic in English, and probably other languages that use the Latin script. This is because it is used for so many different things. It is used for lists {I sent you a letter, an apple, and a small piano.}. It is also used for for side comments {My brother, over committed as always, couldn't spare the time to help.} which are pretty much the same as relative clauses {The ambassador, who came yesterday, is named John.}. (Although, the comma is only used in {poi} type restrictive relative clauses, not in {noi} or {voi} type). Then there are the commas that join ideas in a sentance {I went to the mall, and I bought some pants that didn't fit.} which can become a list of sorts also {The florist called, and the butler quit, and the dog threw up, and I quit.}. They are used incorrectly to join two sentances without a connecting word (called a comma splice by teachers) {Some thing was done, I liked it). That should be a semicolon, although you don't see too many semicolons around anymore; people don't seem to know how to use them right so they just leave them out. A book titled "Eats shoots and leaves" is a good, slightly funny, way to polish up your grammar -- I would reccommend it to even native English speakers. It gets it's name from a joke where a panda bear is described in an encyclopedia as an animal that "eats shoots and leaves" and then the bear "eats, shoots, and leaves" in a restuarant or bar. Without the commas, the shoots and leaves are what it eats. With the commas shooting and leaving are also things it does. And I think I've typed long enough... mu'o mi'e .aleks. --Apple-Mail-2--415749777 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Native English speakers who don't ca= re about punctuation, feel free to skip this post.

Originally:=A0

If I'm correct, nothing wi= ll happen; but if I had a mistake, please tell me, and I'll definitely not = to let it appear again.

First correction:=A0=

Feel free to tell me if there's anyth= ing needs improvement.

Yanis' correcti= on:

Should be "if there anything needs im= provement" or "if there is anything in need of improvement".


By the way, the native English speake= rs (who actually *should* extend helping hands to us in improving our Engli= sh) prefer to leave it as it is. Maybe they think it is not very polite to = correct mistakes of others :) Or maybe just tired of doing it before.

This is a bit tricky, because it ventures ar= ound border of the Subjunctive Mood, which most (modern) English speakers d= on't even know exists. The original would be ok, but a little awkward, with= {not to let it appear} changed to {not let it appear}. However, the semico= lon followed by {but} isn't my preference -- I would drop the but or swap t= he semicolon to a comma. That's secondary though, since commas can be argue= d about for hours.

The first correction is my preference, with {there's anything needs = improvement} changed to {there's anything that needs improvement}.

Yanis' first correction = is worse, in my opinion. His second correction is my preference out of all = the corrections. My personal preference would be {If I'm correct nothing wi= ll happen, but if I made a mistake please tell me and I'll=A0definitely not= let it happen again.}

Wang, I assume your first language uses the hanzi/kanji/hanja=A0char= acters, and thus commas are a new headache for you in English.
On a side note the comma is = especially problematic in English, and probably other languages that use th= e Latin script. This is because it is used for so many different things. It= is used for lists {I sent you a letter, an apple, and a small piano.}. It = is also used for for side comments {My brother, over committed as always, c= ouldn't spare the time to help.} which are pretty much the same as relative= clauses {The ambassador, who came yesterday, is named John.}. (Although, t= he comma is only used in {poi} type restrictive relative clauses, not in {n= oi} or {voi} type).=A0

Then there are the commas that join ideas in a sentance {I went to t= he mall, and I bought some pants that didn't fit.} which can become a list = of sorts also {The florist called, and the butler quit, and the dog threw u= p, and I quit.}. They are used incorrectly to join two sentances without a = connecting word (called a comma splice by teachers) {Some thing was done, I= liked it). That should be a semicolon, although you don't see too many sem= icolons around anymore; people don't seem to know how to use them right so = they just leave them out.

<= /DIV>
A book titled "Eats shoots and leaves" is a good, slightly funny,= way to polish up your grammar -- I would reccommend it to even native Engl= ish speakers. It gets it's name from a joke where a panda bear is described= in an encyclopedia as an animal that "eats shoots and leaves" and then the= bear "eats, shoots, and leaves" in a restuarant or bar. Without the commas= , the shoots and leaves are what it eats. With the commas shooting and leav= ing are also things it does.

And I think I've typed long enough...

mu'o mi'e .aleks.
--Apple-Mail-2--415749777--