Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 31 Oct 2006 04:41:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Gesv9-0006vy-GP for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 04:40:47 -0800 Received: from smtp.mail.umich.edu ([141.211.14.82] helo=hellskitchen.mr.itd.umich.edu) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Gesuy-0006vf-Mg for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 04:40:47 -0800 Received: FROM [141.213.221.81] (bursley-221-81.reshall.umich.edu [141.213.221.81]) BY hellskitchen.mr.itd.umich.edu ID 45474405.EB7BC.11472 ; 31 Oct 2006 07:39:35 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-3--692424577 Message-Id: <70A00219-019E-42A6-96A1-5D8A347100A5@umich.edu> From: Alex Martini Subject: [lojban] Re: Stress of the penultimate syllable Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 07:39:29 -0500 To: lojban-list@lojban.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) X-archive-position: 12861 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: alexjm@umich.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Content-Length: 11461 Lines: 240 --Apple-Mail-3--692424577 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed u'u Yes, the dotted/spaceless style has a reason for accents. If you can actually read and use it, I suppose it is technically correct. ki'u I was describing the variants that people actually *use*, either in the corpus (the collection of published Lojban text) or in this mailing list. To date, I've never seen anyone use this style, except for special cases like {lonu} where they drop a non-stopping space between two cmavo. As for bandwidth/parsing advantages to the undotted style, I don't really see them. The first step (an early step? not sure of specifics) of parsing Lojban into structure *is* to find the word boundaries. So if you use undotted, the parser just puts the spaces back in anyhow. Check out either jbofi'e or the official DOS parser. I suppose undotted gives a shorter text, but much less legible, and since raw text is so bandwidth-small to begin with, it's hardly worth the savings. But that's really another issue entirely, the transparency of computer file formats. Which I'd gladly go into, but I don't think we need to subject the whole mailing list to. mu'omi'e aleks On Oct 31, 2006, at 3:51 AM, Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin wrote: > Though if you think about it, dotted-and-spaceless style is the > speech version of lOjban. The version computers will be using the > communicate to each other over the internet - no point in wasting > extra bandwidth on spaces, when it requires less parsing without > them, and gives you the same result. > > the lOjban computers will be using, la'a is going to be quite a bit > different from the current version. > > On 10/31/06, Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin < andrii.z@gmail.com> wrote: > There is a third style of lojban, dotted-and-spaceless style > > mi'elOkadin..imiprAmiroda.ui.u'i.iu > > I guess I could just write like that, but it's slightly more > difficult to understand than it is with spaces, > > If you were to write by hand, perhaps you would see the difference, > on the contrary, your writing might be as nice as a font -- mine is > not. > > computer parsing of text is much easier when it's standardized, and > if you aren't using spaces, as they are optional, it becomes very > unclear what is going on > > miklamalaparis.fulekarce.imicitkalogerkuzo'o > > becomes very difficult to understand. > > personally I really don't care how you do your lOjban, if you > don't want to capitalize the penultimate syllable of your brIvla, > by all means, if you at some future point do decide to however, I > fully support you. If for no other reason than I will find it more > legible. > > > > On 10/30/06, Alex Joseph Martini < alexjm@umich.edu> wrote: > doi lokadin > > Perhaps it is easier to read for you, but it makes it very > difficult to > read for me. There are, as I know, two major styles of writing normal > Lojban -- dotted and non-dotted. Dotted is like CLL uses, every > mandatory pause is dotted. Some folks (like xorxes) prefer to not > write > in the dots since they are not needed when we write with spaces; which > we all do anyhow. > > Neither of these established styles allow capitals outside of > cmene. For > comparison, think of accenting every polysyllabic word in English. > Yes it > might serve a useful purpose, but it's not the accepted way to write > English. Lojban doesn't have any need for the accents because it's > always accented in the same place. > > Boiling it down, I don't like the accents on every word because > it's not > needed, it's distracting, and none of the other text in the corpus or > baseline does it. > > pei? > > mu'omi'e aleks > > to la lokadin pu ciska de'i li 2006 pi'e 10 pi'e 30 toi > > mi rovu'upAmoi slAka bAsna .i ki'u la'edi'u sAmpu se jImpe mi > > > > There are actually three levels of stress --- primary, secondary, > and > > weak. > >> [ li'o ] > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list- > request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, > or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > > > > -- > ta'o(by the way) We With You Network at: http://lokiworld.org .i(and) > more on Lojban: http://lojban.org > mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is lOkadin) > > > > -- > ta'o(by the way) We With You Network at: http://lokiworld.org .i(and) > more on Lojban: http://lojban.org > mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is lOkadin) --Apple-Mail-3--692424577 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 u'u Yes, the dotted/spaceless = style has a reason for accents. If you can actually read and use it, I = suppose it is technically correct.

ki'u I was=A0describing = the variants that people actually *use*, either in the corpus (the = collection of published Lojban text) or in this mailing list. To date, = I've never seen anyone use this style, except for special cases like = {lonu} where they drop a non-stopping space between two = cmavo.

As for = bandwidth/parsing advantages to the undotted style, I don't really see = them. The first step (an early step? not sure of specifics) of parsing = Lojban into structure *is* to find the word boundaries. So if you use = undotted, the parser just puts the spaces back in anyhow. Check out = either jbofi'e or the official DOS parser.

I suppose undotted gives a = shorter text, but much less legible, and since raw text is so = bandwidth-small to begin with, it's hardly worth the savings. But that's = really another issue entirely, the transparency of computer file = formats. Which I'd gladly go into, but I don't think we need to subject = the whole mailing list to.

mu'omi'e = aleks

On Oct 31, 2006, at 3:51 AM, Andrii = (lOkadin) Zvorygin wrote:

Though if = you think about it, dotted-and-spaceless style is the speech version of = lOjban. The version computers will be using the communicate to each = other over the internet - no point in wasting extra bandwidth on spaces, = when it requires less parsing without them, and gives you the same = result.

the lOjban computers will be using, la'a is going to be = quite a bit different from the current version.

On 10/31/06, Andrii = (lOkadin) Zvorygin < andrii.z@gmail.com> = wrote:
There is a third style of lojban, dotted-and-spaceless style =

mi'elOkadin..imiprAmiroda.ui.u'i.iu

I guess I could just = write like that, but it's slightly more difficult to understand than it = is with spaces,

If you were to write by hand, perhaps you would = see the difference, on the contrary, your writing might be as nice as a = font -- mine is not.

computer parsing of text is much easier when = it's standardized, and if you aren't using spaces, as they are optional, = it becomes very unclear what is going on =

miklamalaparis.fulekarce.imicitkalogerkuzo'o

becomes very = difficult to understand.

personally I really don't care how you = do your lOjban,=A0 if you don't want to capitalize the penultimate = syllable of your brIvla, by all means, if you at some future point do = decide to however, I fully support you. If for no other reason than I = will=A0 find it more legible.



On 10/30/06, Alex = Joseph Martini < alexjm@umich.edu> = wrote:
doi lokadin

Perhaps it is easier to read for you, but it = makes it very difficult to
read for me. There are, as I know, two = major styles of writing normal
Lojban -- dotted and non-dotted. = Dotted is like CLL uses, every
mandatory pause is dotted. Some folks = (like xorxes) prefer to not write
in the dots since they are not = needed when we write with spaces; which
we all do = anyhow.

Neither of these established styles allow capitals = outside of cmene. For
comparison, think of accenting every = polysyllabic word in English. Yes it
might serve a useful purpose, = but it's not the accepted way to write
English. Lojban doesn't have = any need for the accents because it's
always accented in the same = place.

Boiling it down, I don't like the accents on every word = because it's not
needed, it's distracting, and none of the other text = in the corpus or
baseline does it.

pei?

mu'omi'e = aleks

to la lokadin pu ciska de'i li 2006 pi'e 10 pi'e 30 = toi
> mi rovu'upAmoi=A0=A0slAka bAsna .i ki'u la'edi'u sAmpu se = jImpe mi
>
> There are actually three levels of stress --- = primary, secondary, and
> weak.
>> [ li'o = ]


To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org =
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, = or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for = help.




--
ta'o(by the = way)=A0=A0We With You Network at: http://lokiworld.org = .i(and)
more on Lojban: = http://lojban.org
mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is lOkadin) =



--
ta'o(by the = way)=A0=A0We With You Network at: http://lokiworld.org .i(and)
more = on Lojban: http://lojban.org =
mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is = lOkadin)

= --Apple-Mail-3--692424577-- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.