From lojban-out@lojban.org Tue Oct 31 04:43:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99541 invoked from network); 31 Oct 2006 12:43:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m37.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Oct 2006 12:43:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Oct 2006 12:43:39 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Gesx8-0006yz-EY for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 04:42:50 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Gesvj-0006wU-Sg; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 04:41:33 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 31 Oct 2006 04:41:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Gesv9-0006vy-GP for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 04:40:47 -0800 Received: from smtp.mail.umich.edu ([141.211.14.82] helo=hellskitchen.mr.itd.umich.edu) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Gesuy-0006vf-Mg for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 31 Oct 2006 04:40:47 -0800 Received: FROM [141.213.221.81] (bursley-221-81.reshall.umich.edu [141.213.221.81]) BY hellskitchen.mr.itd.umich.edu ID 45474405.EB7BC.11472 ; 31 Oct 2006 07:39:35 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-3--692424577 Message-Id: <70A00219-019E-42A6-96A1-5D8A347100A5@umich.edu> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 07:39:29 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) X-archive-position: 12861 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: alexjm@umich.edu X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: Alex Martini From: Alex Martini Reply-To: alexjm@umich.edu Subject: [lojban] Re: Stress of the penultimate syllable X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=g6k7DkH24k6su-SAE-WdXDOMug9vyddYw2wWtKpsmlz9USqHmQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 27301 --Apple-Mail-3--692424577 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed u'u Yes, the dotted/spaceless style has a reason for accents. If you can actually read and use it, I suppose it is technically correct. ki'u I was describing the variants that people actually *use*, either in the corpus (the collection of published Lojban text) or in this mailing list. To date, I've never seen anyone use this style, except for special cases like {lonu} where they drop a non-stopping space between two cmavo. As for bandwidth/parsing advantages to the undotted style, I don't really see them. The first step (an early step? not sure of specifics) of parsing Lojban into structure *is* to find the word boundaries. So if you use undotted, the parser just puts the spaces back in anyhow. Check out either jbofi'e or the official DOS parser. I suppose undotted gives a shorter text, but much less legible, and since raw text is so bandwidth-small to begin with, it's hardly worth the savings. But that's really another issue entirely, the transparency of computer file formats. Which I'd gladly go into, but I don't think we need to subject the whole mailing list to. mu'omi'e aleks On Oct 31, 2006, at 3:51 AM, Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin wrote: > Though if you think about it, dotted-and-spaceless style is the > speech version of lOjban. The version computers will be using the > communicate to each other over the internet - no point in wasting > extra bandwidth on spaces, when it requires less parsing without > them, and gives you the same result. > > the lOjban computers will be using, la'a is going to be quite a bit > different from the current version. > > On 10/31/06, Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin < andrii.z@gmail.com> wrote: > There is a third style of lojban, dotted-and-spaceless style > > mi'elOkadin..imiprAmiroda.ui.u'i.iu > > I guess I could just write like that, but it's slightly more > difficult to understand than it is with spaces, > > If you were to write by hand, perhaps you would see the difference, > on the contrary, your writing might be as nice as a font -- mine is > not. > > computer parsing of text is much easier when it's standardized, and > if you aren't using spaces, as they are optional, it becomes very > unclear what is going on > > miklamalaparis.fulekarce.imicitkalogerkuzo'o > > becomes very difficult to understand. > > personally I really don't care how you do your lOjban, if you > don't want to capitalize the penultimate syllable of your brIvla, > by all means, if you at some future point do decide to however, I > fully support you. If for no other reason than I will find it more > legible. > > > > On 10/30/06, Alex Joseph Martini < alexjm@umich.edu> wrote: > doi lokadin > > Perhaps it is easier to read for you, but it makes it very > difficult to > read for me. There are, as I know, two major styles of writing normal > Lojban -- dotted and non-dotted. Dotted is like CLL uses, every > mandatory pause is dotted. Some folks (like xorxes) prefer to not > write > in the dots since they are not needed when we write with spaces; which > we all do anyhow. > > Neither of these established styles allow capitals outside of > cmene. For > comparison, think of accenting every polysyllabic word in English. > Yes it > might serve a useful purpose, but it's not the accepted way to write > English. Lojban doesn't have any need for the accents because it's > always accented in the same place. > > Boiling it down, I don't like the accents on every word because > it's not > needed, it's distracting, and none of the other text in the corpus or > baseline does it. > > pei? > > mu'omi'e aleks > > to la lokadin pu ciska de'i li 2006 pi'e 10 pi'e 30 toi > > mi rovu'upAmoi slAka bAsna .i ki'u la'edi'u sAmpu se jImpe mi > > > > There are actually three levels of stress --- primary, secondary, > and > > weak. > >> [ li'o ] > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list- > request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, > or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > > > > -- > ta'o(by the way) We With You Network at: http://lokiworld.org .i(and) > more on Lojban: http://lojban.org > mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is lOkadin) > > > > -- > ta'o(by the way) We With You Network at: http://lokiworld.org .i(and) > more on Lojban: http://lojban.org > mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is lOkadin) --Apple-Mail-3--692424577 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 u'u Yes, the dotted/spaceless style has a= reason for accents. If you can actually read and use it, I suppose it is t= echnically correct.

ki'u I was=A0describing the variants that people actually *use*, either = in the corpus (the collection of published Lojban text) or in this mailing = list. To date, I've never seen anyone use this style, except for special ca= ses like {lonu} where they drop a non-stopping space between two cmavo.

As for bandwidth/pa= rsing advantages to the undotted style, I don't really see them. The first = step (an early step? not sure of specifics) of parsing Lojban into structur= e *is* to find the word boundaries. So if you use undotted, the parser just= puts the spaces back in anyhow. Check out either jbofi'e or the official D= OS parser.

I sup= pose undotted gives a shorter text, but much less legible, and since raw te= xt is so bandwidth-small to begin with, it's hardly worth the savings. But = that's really another issue entirely, the transparency of computer file for= mats. Which I'd gladly go into, but I don't think we need to subject the wh= ole mailing list to.

=
mu'omi'e aleks

On Oct 31, 2006, at 3:51 AM, An= drii (lOkadin) Zvorygin wrote:

Though if you think about it, dotted-and-spacele= ss style is the speech version of lOjban. The version computers will be usi= ng the communicate to each other over the internet - no point in wasting ex= tra bandwidth on spaces, when it requires less parsing without them, and gi= ves you the same result.

the lOjban computers will be using, la'a i= s going to be quite a bit different from the current version.

<= SPAN class=3D"gmail_quote">On 10/31/06, Andri= i (lOkadin) Zvorygin < andrii.= z@gmail.com> wrote:
There is a third style of lojban, dotted-and-spaceless styl= e

mi'elOkadin..imiprAmiroda.ui.u'i.iu

I guess I could just w= rite like that, but it's slightly more difficult to understand than it is w= ith spaces,

If you were to write by hand, perhaps you would see th= e difference, on the contrary, your writing might be as nice as a font -- m= ine is not.

computer parsing of text is much easier when it's standa= rdized, and if you aren't using spaces, as they are optional, it becomes ve= ry unclear what is going on

miklamalaparis.fulekarce.imicitkalogerk= uzo'o

becomes very difficult to understand.

personally I real= ly don't care how you do your lOjban,=A0 if you don't want to capitalize th= e penultimate syllable of your brIvla, by all means, if you at some future = point do decide to however, I fully support you. If for no other reason tha= n I will=A0 find it more legible.



On 10/30/06, Alex Joseph Martini < alexjm@umich.edu> wrote:
doi lokadin

Perhaps it is easier = to read for you, but it makes it very difficult to
read for me. There ar= e, as I know, two major styles of writing normal
Lojban -- dotted and no= n-dotted. Dotted is like CLL uses, every
mandatory pause is dotted. Som= e folks (like xorxes) prefer to not write
in the dots since they are not= needed when we write with spaces; which
we all do anyhow.

Neithe= r of these established styles allow capitals outside of cmene. For
comp= arison, think of accenting every polysyllabic word in English. Yes it
mi= ght serve a useful purpose, but it's not the accepted way to write
Engli= sh. Lojban doesn't have any need for the accents because it's
always ac= cented in the same place.

Boiling it down, I don't like the accents = on every word because it's not
needed, it's distracting, and none of the= other text in the corpus or
baseline does it.

pei?

mu'o= mi'e aleks

to la lokadin pu ciska de'i li 2006 pi'e 10 pi'e 30 toi> mi rovu'upAmoi=A0=A0slAka bAsna .i ki'u la'edi'u sAmpu se jImpe mi>
> There are actually three levels of stress --- primary, secon= dary, and
> weak.
>> [ li'o ]


To unsubscribe fro= m this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go= to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.



--
ta'o(by the = way)=A0=A0We With You Network at: http:/= /lokiworld.org .i(and)
more on Lojban: http://lojban.org
mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is lOkadin)



--
ta'o(by the way)=A0= =A0We With You Network at: http://lokiworl= d.org .i(and)
more on Lojban: http://l= ojban.org
mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is lOkadin)
=

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