From lojban-out@lojban.org Wed Nov 01 14:24:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 43283 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 22:20:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 22:20:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 22:20:16 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GfOMs-0005MN-Fy for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 01 Nov 2006 14:15:30 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GfOKy-0005Ks-L3; Wed, 01 Nov 2006 14:13:35 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 01 Nov 2006 14:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GfOKU-0005KN-Eb for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 01 Nov 2006 14:13:02 -0800 Received: from web81312.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.128]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GfOKR-0005JZ-7p for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 01 Nov 2006 14:13:02 -0800 Received: (qmail 80870 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Nov 2006 22:12:57 -0000 Message-ID: <20061101221257.80868.qmail@web81312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [70.237.213.146] by web81312.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 01 Nov 2006 14:12:57 PST Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 14:12:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-archive-position: 12893 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: Stress of the penultimate syllable X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=mxEHQ1cTjWi0M41i8iCrjKC0UfuDR9PHhiGrRH9binhTYJxWhQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 27333 --- "Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin" wrote: > On 11/1/06, John E Clifford wrote: > > > > > > > > --- "Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Is thIs tExt EAsier tO rEAd? I thInk nOt, becAUse yOU cannOt rEAd It At > > A > > > > nOrmal pAce bUt hAve to slOw dOwn. (It Also lOOks prEtty Ugly.) > > > > > > > > > > please read previous thread on penultimate syllables. English text does > > NOT > > > emphasize the penultimate syllable. It is stress timed. so you have > > stress > > > at regular intervals. There don't seem to be any defined rules as to > > where > > > you should put emphasis in English, so it makes no sense to capitalize > > > English. > > > > Actually, each word in English has a fixed stress. There are precious few > > rules to assign stress > > (and they are different in different dialects). Marking stress would make > > sense in English -- as > > it does not generally in Lojban since it varies -- and is significant (i.e., > > there are words which > > differ only or primarily in stress location, with derivative vowel shift: > > produce (v) v. produce > > (n)). The stressed-time feature -- which is more literary than > > conversational, though we do tend > > that way when possible -- is just that we tend to hurry over unstressed > > syllables to get to the > > stressed ones, so that the time between stressed syllables is about > > constant. The favorite sample > > is the nursery rhyme, Three Blind Mice, which has three-stressed lines of > > (arguably) between three > > and eleven syllables. > > > > > > > Try it, write out some text in English in all lower case, normal mixed > > case, > > > > accented case, and all upper case. The normal mixed case is what > > you've > > > > trained your brain to read best after years of near constant practice. > > It > > > > doesn't take kindly to messing that up. > > > > > > > > > > above statement. .e'o try to stay informed, check Wikipedia before you > > start > > > capitalizing random vowels in English. > > > > I'm not sure what the point of the response is here: the original claim is > > that we learn to read a > > certain pattern of letters without reading separate letters and, thus, > > when we find different > > patters of letters (especially, say, capitals in the middle of words)we > > cannot read in the usual > > way and have to go back to the slower letter-by-letter style. > > > > > > oops quoted wrong line > > > Is thIs tExt EAsier tO rEAd? I thInk nOt, becAUse yOU cannOt rEAd It At A > nOrmal pAce bUt hAve to slOw dOwn. (It Also lOOks prEtty Ugly.) > > that's the line I was refering to with the Wikipedia comment. If you are > truly fluent in lOjban then you should have no difficulty understanding all > its forms. > These caps are not exactly random, but pointless since most of the words are one syllable and a few of them are virtually accentless by nature. No difficulty is a matter of taste: I take it that the point is that having to shift from Gestalt reading to letter reading is considered a difficulty in this context. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.