From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat Nov 11 14:17:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2146 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2006 22:12:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.36) by m37.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2006 22:12:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2006 22:12:10 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Gj14w-0004AL-Gt for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 14:11:58 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Gj14I-00049e-L5; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 14:11:20 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 11 Nov 2006 14:11:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Gj13p-00049U-Qs for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 14:10:49 -0800 Received: from web30414.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.201.237]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Gj13l-00049M-Oa for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 14:10:49 -0800 Received: (qmail 81876 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Nov 2006 22:10:44 -0000 Message-ID: <20061111221044.81874.qmail@web30414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: jQRe0W4VM1nVPerG3v4iEAyiMkw88nJcRv4M7jtXbZ5sOYbq5exheI0iCOx.yU6gs9FBfURADXH.vLhoBD8AISZ9MQDcDrniivW1Zm.s240Q2MVHE8PTIl1fhSJPtfVRWngVbTIk0E2UT3k- Received: from [132.178.229.54] by web30414.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 11 Nov 2006 14:10:44 PST Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 14:10:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-archive-position: 13064 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: eye_onus@yahoo.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: Jon MacLeod From: Jon MacLeod Reply-To: eye_onus@yahoo.com Subject: [lojban] Re: D'ni orthography for Lojban X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=Nj6fhE4Eksz1HR-YtQZPLpZdR-MFy8jMXf3OhmYv7kdGoC7B-Q X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 27498 --- Hugh O'Byrne wrote: > > The D'ni language has 24 different characters, 11 with accented versions > > (the xy. and by., for example), and has 35 individual sounds. I honestly > > don't know why the creators of the Myst series of games decided to attach a > > certain symbol to a certain phoneme, I just know which one's are which. > > Ah. I did not realise that the typeface came from a game. I wonder if > copyright is an issue. I'll find out. > I think if a new alphabet is to be chosen for Lojban, it must have design > considerations which are compatible and harmonious with Lojban. The first > consideration I can think of is that it should be robust against time; i.e. > robust against sloppiness. Features which may get smeared or de-emphasised > in haste should, as much as possible, retain as much recognisability as > possible, and be as easily distinguised from other smeared features as > possible. > > The second design consideration I would put forward is orthogonality (e.g. > that the presence/absence of the accent in a symbol correspond to a > *particular* feature of the corresponding phoneme, e.g. whether the phoneme > is voiced or not). > > There are interesting consequences and interplays to take into > consideration. I find it quite fascinating. It elicits some deep thinking > on how exactly perception works, when one explores how one symbol can be > made 'as different as possible' from another symbol, within rules. > > Omniglot (http://www.omniglot.com/) is a good place to explore shapes of > letters. If you're interested in alphabets and orthographies, a visit there > is highly recommended. And, of course, the IPA ( > http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/ipa/fullchart.html) is a valuable resource for > classifying the other end of the orthography: the phones and phonemes > (different words! different concepts!) that are represented by the shapes on > the page. > > I don't have anything against altering Lojbanic usage of the D'ni character > > set > > to be more correct > > > :) aha, you'll get me in trouble. I know better than to try and claim I am > 'correct' on this issue. I express opinions. Others will express other > opinions. History will decide which opinions are more valid. Or it won't. > > - if you are wont to, by all means alter it as you see fit > > to improve for Lojbanic usage, I would love to see the result, and I'll be > > more > > than happy to fix the font mappings to your results. > > > I have mused on matters of orthography for years, but I'm still not sure my > expertise is up to the high standard I have set for a 'perfect alphabet'. I > guess I should get started trying. I actually considered revising the linkage between the sounds and symbols myself, but I have absolutely no experience in the matter, however poorly you may do, I have no doubt it would be better than my attempt. I do believe that some form of alteration would be a good idea. > > "As a percentage of total universal knowledge, what I know is > > statistically insignificant." - me > > > I like that sentiment. It makes me more eager to share what little > expertise I have, and collaborate with those whose goal is also to > contribute to the collective knowledge. .ui I must say that the quote orginates from the saying "A wise man knows that he knows nothing." And is meant in a sarcastically humorous tone- even it is a factual statement. (I like using big wors- they're more presice.) > mi'e .xius. > -- > Good night, and have a rational tomorrow! > mi'e .topy'at. "I have a brain, I've just lost my mind." -Ian McLeod "As a percentage of total universal knowledge, what I know is statistically insignificant." - me ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.