From lojban-out@lojban.org Sun Nov 05 01:47:01 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 77695 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2006 09:46:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.36) by m38.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2006 09:46:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2006 09:46:14 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GgeTr-0005nt-Ct for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 05 Nov 2006 01:39:55 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GgeSl-0005mh-CC; Sun, 05 Nov 2006 01:38:50 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 05 Nov 2006 01:38:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GgeSJ-0005mV-CT for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 05 Nov 2006 01:38:19 -0800 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.191]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GgeSC-0005mJ-Sr for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 05 Nov 2006 01:38:19 -0800 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id n28so1921343nfc for ; Sun, 05 Nov 2006 01:38:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.78.117.10 with SMTP id p10mr5211259huc.1162719491122; Sun, 05 Nov 2006 01:38:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.78.124.16 with HTTP; Sun, 5 Nov 2006 01:38:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 04:38:11 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20061104221637.24770.qmail@web30403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_29980_24767455.1162719491068" References: <20061104221637.24770.qmail@web30403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-archive-position: 12905 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: andrii.z@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin" From: "Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin" Reply-To: andrii.z@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: reform X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=fcxGWJMtCoK48hInpRbxphdOVlGI7i-m02xse70eB58QfaZWwQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 27345 ------=_Part_29980_24767455.1162719491068 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline minadjEcilenurAnjefalotivicAsnu.imikAknecIskacUskufola'edi'u.ife'o On 11/4/06, Jon MacLeod wrote: > > > > --- "Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin" wrote: > > > In English we don't stress vowels based on the syllable in the words: > > > > Wikipedia article Stress (Linguistics): > > > > Timing and placement *Further information: Timing > > (linguistics) > > * > > > > English is a > *stress-timed > > language*; that is, stressed syllables appear at a roughly constant > rate, > > and non-stressed syllables are shortened to accommodate this. Other > > languages have *syllable timing* > ( > > e.g. Spanish ) or > > *moratiming > > * (e.g. Japanese ), > where > > syllables or morae are spoken at a roughly constant rate regardless of > > stress. > > > > Some languages have fixed stress. That is, stress is placed always on a > > given syllable, as in > > Finnishand > > Hungarian (stress > always > > on the first syllable) or > > Quechuaand > > Polish (stress always on > the > > penult : one syllable before the > last) > > or on third syllable counting backwards, as in > > Macedonian(see: > > *Stress in Macedonian > > language > > *). Other languages have stress placed on different syllables but in a > > predictable way, as in Latin (where > > stress is conditioned by the structure of the penultimate syllable). > They > > are said to have a regular stress rule. > > While I find the above somewhat interesting, I don't see what it has to > with > your annoying convention of capitalizing the stressed vowel in Lojban > texts. > > > as you can see from the above, English is a stress-timed language. so we > > don't emphasize the penultImate syllabEles. so there would be no point > in > > capitalizing them as you wouldn't pronounce them that way anyways. > > > > The reason I stress the pen-ultimate syllable in lOjban, is because it > needs > > to be stressed, unlike in english where you stress whatever you want, > (shows > > emphasis and such). > > I know that English does not stress the penultimate syllable, where > talking > about Lojban here. However, you are incorrect when you say you can English > in > whatever way you want- you must still put the emphAsis on the correct > syllAble. > > > to show Emphasis in lOjban we use zo ba'e, and the rythym of the > language is > > defined bY the penultimate syllable. ThAt is why I emphasize the > penultimate > > syllable. > > > > nOw that i think about it, perhaps i'll start strEssing english words. > That > > could make them EAsier to read -- mAybe even showing more Emphasis. > > To use an old IRC convention to make my point clear, English does /not/ > stress > certain syllables in a word- the stress is standardized, though different > segments of the language (such as British and American) have differing > standards. Emphasis is applied to the /entire/ word unless in rare > occurences > such as stating a specific portion- as in the difference between > Jonath/a/n and > Jonath/o/n (which is pretty much a matter of spelling, but I'm not going > to > take the time to come up with a better example). > > As such, putting capitals into words makes them /harder/, not easier, to > read, > is very distracting, and for most purposes is unneeded, especially in > Lojban > where the words naturally stress on the penultimate. > > Last but not least, you are the only person who wants the whole > capitalization > thing, you are also the only one who is doing it. As such, the only Lojban > texts you will see with the practice of always capitalizing the stressed > vowel > is those you write yourself. I'm sure there is not a single person in the > world > who would care how you write Lojban text that are meant for your eyes > only, so > by all means, do what you will. However, that which you write that is > intended > for others eyes should follow convention, as that is the entire reason > that > such convention exists. > > As a suggestion, if you really wish to put obvious stress into your > writing you > might consider _underlining_ the stressed portions, it makes it easier for > the > rest of us to read, since unlike you we find the capitalized letters > /more/, > not less, difficult. > > Here's a much better idea for you- Start reading the texts aloud, get used > to > automatically stressing penultimately, and cease trying to get the Lojban > community to put to practice something that is less likely to happen than > me > winning the lottery. (BTW, I don't play the lottery.) > > As an afterthought, I must say that if I seem to be offensive or rude, > that is > not my wish and I apologize. I'm am not trying to be disrespectful or > crass, I > am merely trying to get a point across: "mI klAma lE skUle" is /harder/ > /to/ > /read/ than "mi klama le skule". > > -Jon > > > On 10/31/06, Jon MacLeod wrote: > > > > > > I have a contention to the practice of capitalizing the stressed > syllable > > > in > > > regular text- one, I fInd It mUch hArder tO rEad wIth thE letter > > > capitalized, > > > and secondly, in certain fonts, the capital I and lowercase l look > > > /exactly/ > > > the same. cIlno clIno try it out. > > > > > > -Jon Jones > > > > > > "I have a brain, I've just lost my mind." -Ian McLeod > > > > > > "As a percentage of total universal knowledge, what I know is > > > statistically insignificant." - me > > > > > > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > > > Version 3.12 > > > GCS>$ d+(++) s++:-- a- C++ UL P L++>+++++ !E W+(++) N+ o? K- !w---- O- > > > M-(+)@ V? PS+++ PE- Y+ PGP- t+ !5-- X(+) R+ !tv-- b+++ DI+ D+ G e* h+* > > > r+(++) y+(++) > > > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your email and see which of your friends are online - Right on the > New > > > Yahoo.com > > > (http://www.yahoo.com/preview) > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to > lojban-list-request@lojban.org > > > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or > if > > > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > ta'o(by the way) We With You Network at: http://lokiworld.org .i(and) > > more on Lojban: http://lojban.org > > mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is lOkadin) > > > > > -Jon Jones > > "I have a brain, I've just lost my mind." -Ian McLeod > > "As a percentage of total universal knowledge, what I know is > statistically insignificant." - me > > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version 3.12 > GCS>$ d+(++) s++:-- a- C++ UL P L++>+++++ !E W+(++) N+ o? K- !w---- O- > M-(+)@ V? PS+++ PE- Y+ PGP- t+ !5-- X(+) R+ !tv-- b+++ DI+ D+ G e* h+* > r+(++) y+(++) > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > > > > __________________________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the New Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get > things done faster. > (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta) > > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > -- ta'o(by the way) We With You Network at: http://lokiworld.org .i(and) more on Lojban: http://lojban.org mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is lOkadin) ------=_Part_29980_24767455.1162719491068 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline minadjEcilenurAnjefalotivicAsnu.imikAknecIskacUskufola'edi'u.ife'o

On 11/4/06, Jon MacLeod <eye_onus@yahoo.com > wrote:


--- "Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin" < andrii.z@gmail.com> wrote:

> In English we don't stress vowels based on the syllable in the words:
>
> Wikipedia article Stress (Linguistics):
>
> Timing and placement *Further information: Timing
> (linguistics)<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timing_%28linguistics%29>
> *
>
> English < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language> is a *stress-timed
> language*; that is, stressed syllables appear at a roughly constant rate,
> and non-stressed syllables are shortened to accommodate this. Other
> languages have *syllable <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllable> timing* (
> e.g. Spanish < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language>) or
> *mora<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mora_%28linguistics%29>timing
> * (e.g. Japanese < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_language>), where
> syllables or morae are spoken at a roughly constant rate regardless of
> stress.
>
> Some languages have fixed stress. That is, stress is placed always on a
> given syllable, as in
> Finnish<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language >and
> Hungarian <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_language> (stress always
> on the first syllable) or
> Quechua< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quechua_language>and
> Polish <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_language> (stress always on the
> penult < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penult>: one syllable before the last)
> or on third syllable counting backwards, as in
> Macedonian< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language>(see:
> *Stress in Macedonian
> language<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_in_Macedonian_language >
> *). Other languages have stress placed on different syllables but in a
> predictable way, as in Latin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin> (where
> stress is conditioned by the structure of the penultimate syllable). They
> are said to have a regular stress rule.

While I find the above somewhat interesting, I don't see what it has to with
your annoying convention of capitalizing the stressed vowel in Lojban texts.

> as you can see from the above, English is a stress-timed language. so we
> don't emphasize the penultImate syllabEles. so there would be no point in
> capitalizing them as you wouldn't pronounce them that way anyways.
>
> The reason I stress the pen-ultimate syllable in lOjban, is because it needs
> to be stressed, unlike in english where you stress whatever you want, (shows
> emphasis and such).

I know that English does not stress the penultimate syllable, where talking
about Lojban here. However, you are incorrect when you say you can English in
whatever way you want- you must still put the emphAsis on the correct syllAble.

> to show Emphasis in lOjban we use zo ba'e, and the rythym of the language is
> defined bY the penultimate syllable. ThAt is why I emphasize the penultimate
> syllable.
>
> nOw that i think about it, perhaps i'll start strEssing english words. That
> could make them EAsier to read -- mAybe even showing more Emphasis.

To use an old IRC convention to make my point clear, English does /not/ stress
certain syllables in a word- the stress is standardized, though different
segments of the language (such as British and American) have differing
standards. Emphasis is applied to the /entire/ word unless in rare occurences
such as stating a specific portion- as in the difference between Jonath/a/n and
Jonath/o/n (which is pretty much a matter of spelling, but I'm not going to
take the time to come up with a better example).

As such, putting capitals into words makes them /harder/, not easier, to read,
is very distracting, and for most purposes is unneeded, especially in Lojban
where the words naturally stress on the penultimate.

Last but not least, you are the only person who wants the whole capitalization
thing, you are also the only one who is doing it. As such, the only Lojban
texts you will see with the practice of always capitalizing the stressed vowel
is those you write yourself. I'm sure there is not a single person in the world
who would care how you write Lojban text that are meant for your eyes only, so
by all means, do what you will. However, that which you write that is intended
for others eyes should follow convention, as that is the entire reason that
such convention exists.

As a suggestion, if you really wish to put obvious stress into your writing you
might consider _underlining_ the stressed portions, it makes it easier for the
rest of us to read, since unlike you we find the capitalized letters /more/,
not less, difficult.

Here's a much better idea for you- Start reading the texts aloud, get used to
automatically stressing penultimately, and cease trying to get the Lojban
community to put to practice something that is less likely to happen than me
winning the lottery. (BTW, I don't play the lottery.)

As an afterthought, I must say that if I seem to be offensive or rude, that is
not my wish and I apologize. I'm am not trying to be disrespectful or crass, I
am merely trying to get a point across: "mI klAma lE skUle" is /harder/ /to/
/read/ than "mi klama le skule".

-Jon

> On 10/31/06, Jon MacLeod <eye_onus@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > I have a contention to the practice of capitalizing the stressed syllable
> > in
> > regular text- one, I fInd It mUch hArder tO rEad wIth thE letter
> > capitalized,
> > and secondly, in certain fonts, the capital I and lowercase l look
> > /exactly/
> > the same. cIlno clIno try it out.
> >
> > -Jon Jones
> >
> > "I have a brain, I've just lost my mind." -Ian McLeod
> >
> > "As a percentage of total universal knowledge, what I know is
> > statistically insignificant." - me
> >
> > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> > Version 3.12
> > GCS>$ d+(++) s++:-- a- C++ UL P L++>+++++ !E W+(++) N+ o? K- !w---- O-
> > M-(+)@ V? PS+++ PE- Y+ PGP- t+ !5-- X(+) R+ !tv-- b+++ DI+ D+ G e* h+*
> > r+(++) y+(++)
> > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> > Get your email and see which of your friends are online - Right on the New
> > Yahoo.com
> > (http://www.yahoo.com/preview)
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> ta'o(by the way)  We With You Network at: http://lokiworld.org .i(and)
> more on Lojban: http://lojban.org
> mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is lOkadin)
>


-Jon Jones

"I have a brain, I've just lost my mind." -Ian McLeod

"As a percentage of total universal knowledge, what I know is statistically insignificant." - me

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.12
GCS>$ d+(++) s++:-- a- C++ UL P L++>+++++ !E W+(++) N+ o? K- !w---- O- M-(+)@ V? PS+++ PE- Y+ PGP- t+ !5-- X(+) R+ !tv-- b+++ DI+ D+ G e* h+* r+(++) y+(++)
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------



__________________________________________________________________________________________
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To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.




--
ta'o(by the way)  We With You Network at: http://lokiworld.org .i(and)
more on Lojban: http://lojban.org
mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is lOkadin) ------=_Part_29980_24767455.1162719491068--