From lojban-out@lojban.org Wed Nov 08 18:09:22 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 22306 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2006 02:05:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m40.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2006 02:05:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2006 02:05:22 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GhzI4-0000Fg-Gp for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 08 Nov 2006 18:05:16 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GhzGE-0000DW-Kb; Wed, 08 Nov 2006 18:03:28 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 08 Nov 2006 18:03:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GhzFl-0000DG-Ud for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 08 Nov 2006 18:02:54 -0800 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.175]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GhzFe-0000D5-2y for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 08 Nov 2006 18:02:53 -0800 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id c2so82609ugf for ; Wed, 08 Nov 2006 18:02:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.67.22.14 with SMTP id z14mr511892ugi.1163037763504; Wed, 08 Nov 2006 18:02:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.216.14 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Nov 2006 18:02:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 21:02:43 -0500 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_20587_3312225.1163037763438" References: <2d3df92a0611061040o5b0781c0o3df414476a3e0b68@mail.gmail.com> <200611081049.40483.colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) X-archive-position: 12958 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: hobyrne@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "Hugh O'Byrne" From: "Hugh O'Byrne" Reply-To: hobyrne@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: livejournal discrimination X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=ZKMGIkVhAgu-4L7zCQbh0sVvDT1FH5WdElqbyNHHuDfrQqy0Bw X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 27399 ------=_Part_20587_3312225.1163037763438 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 11/8/06, Matt Arnold wrote: > > I suggest that one person is too few. I point out that the first time a thing is done, it is done by one person, the first person to do it. To my knowledge, only one person writes posts with "-Eppcott" at the end. Does this say something bad about you? Does it say something good about you? Neither. It's a dead-end observation (except for the side issue of displaying my own ignorance). It may sound like a point, but it's not. It contributes nothing to a debate. Except when you throw in the consideration of an extended time... You see the first teenager wearing a Livestrong wrist band, you say it's one person, that's not a trend, it'll never be a fashion, there's not enough people doing it. _Wait_. *See* if it becomes a fashion, even if it's not your style, even if none of your current friends adopt the style right away, before you pass judgement. In the world of fashion (I presume you're not a designer or a major retailer of fashion here), you'll just look silly, out-of-touch, not groovin' with the beat of the next generation, or whatever they say these days. Certainly you won't make new friends. In this metaphor applied to the world of Lojban, you come off as obstructionist and short-sighted; Lojban is always eager to make new friends. (Yes, there is a compliment in there; you are a big voice in Lojban.) I suggest that saying "one person is too few" is a premature judgement. Lojban is uniquely vulnerable to the pursuit of perfection at the cost > of interoperability. 'Vulnerable'... as if that were a weakness. We have diverging values here. Not too long ago, the number of people who spoke Lojban was zero, so interoperability was not a concern at all. It was *just* a pursuit of perfection. For those of us with grand hopes for the language (that it will last a long time and gain a significant following), the number of current speakers of Lojban is _still_ a very small number. Speaking personally, I think one of the biggest misperceptions *I* had is a matter of timing. Lojban has gone past its design stage. In doing that, it has lost something, some of its appeal. It still _seems_ very fresh, fresh enough that design can still be worked on, but it has really gotten quite static. Such is the way of things. Lokadin is the latest reformer among countless. o/ (I'm sure my address is still recognised by at least some...) Eventually Lokadin will realize that no one is reading what he writes > in Lojban because there do not exist a sufficiently large number of > expert Lojbanists yet. You cannot make that determination. You do not know that 'no one' will read his posts. It is an invalid statement. Writing such a thing is overgeneralising, - even insulting. You accuse me of being a snob, that I am superficial, that I will reject the substance of lOkadin's posts simply because of their form. Either that, or you call me 'no one'. I've been called 'no-one' before. I don't like it, but on the balance, it is more of a bad reflection on the society that says it than on the ones they say it to. (What do you mean by "a sufficiently large number of expert Lojbanists", anyway? Perhaps "a sufficiently large number of expert Lojbanists", to lOkadin, is "one person who will try and read my posts". It is not up to you to decide what is 'sufficient'.) The only way to acheive that would be > consistent conformity, so that it is easier for beginners to learn > Lojban. First, he does conform to the Lojban spec (at least in regards capitalisation and spacing, as far as I can tell; I'm willing to be educated further on this subject if someone feels the need to enlighten me). Second, even if he does not conform to you and your friends, he chose this mailing list, lojban, *not* lojban-beginners, to post in. He is not replacing existing lessons with ones this style. He is not trying to jeopardize the established learning curve. Third, conforming with you and your friends is not the *only* way to get a large number of expert Lojbanists. It may be the easiest way (short-term), it may be the fastest way, but it's not the only way. Fourth, you imply that a group of experts is a necessary prerequisite to lOkadin's being understood, and that this state of affairs has not come about yet; however, if lOkadin has the generous interpretation of "group of experts" I give above, this state is already achieved today. By not conforming to the standard, Lokadin is not contributing > to the goal of expertise that would make it possible to deviate from > that standard and still be widely understood. That he is even attempting to use Lojban should be a clue that 'widely understood' is not his biggest concern :) Even if he is not contributing to bringing about the state of affairs you mention, what you consider to be a prerequisite for more fruitful pursuit of the direction he has taken, he is not hindering it either. - Maybe he's jumping the gun; maybe it would be more convenient if he did it when a 'sufficiently large' group could support him. All that means is, he's a pioneer, he's ahead of his time. When he realizes that, > Lojban will cease to be any fun for him. You speak with such certainty on his motivations. Do you know him personally? As for me, I think it's more likely it's the company of this forum that will cease to be fun for him, not the language (though some on the forum don't seem to know the difference between the two any more). The Lojban freeze is long over. And even if it wasn't, I'm not convinced yet that lOkadin's style of writing is, in fact, nonstandard. Unorthodox, yes. He is pushing the limits of the language, to see how it works. Even _if_ he finds out in the end that it's impractical for everyday use, his experimentation within the language helps him (and any others who choose to follow him) figure out the shape of language. That could be valuable insight, and insight in the very same nature as Lojban as a whole inspires. IMHO, this is _not_ to be discouraged. Finally, he has not once (that I've seen) tried to pressure *anybody* into using that style. Me, I never read posts that are written entirely in capital letters. But I don't come down on people who do that. It's my choice whether to read a post or not depending on its superficial qualities; it makes me a shallow person that I will disregard content if its form does not reach my standards. It's my choice to be a snob that way. It's your choice to be a snob or not. What makes some people uncomfortable is being put in a situation which demonstrates snobbishness they don't want to admit to. I'm a type of snob, I'll admit it; if you're not going to read lOkadin's messages for the superficial appearance of his posts, you're a snob too. Live with it. Don't take it out on him if you judge him superficially and at the same time want to believe yourself enlightened and egalitarian. mi'e .xius. ------=_Part_20587_3312225.1163037763438 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 11/8/06, Matt Arnold <matt.mattarn@gmail.com> wrote:
I suggest that one person is too few.

I point out that= the first time a thing is done, it is done by one person, the first person= to do it.

To my knowledge, only one person writes posts with "= -Eppcott" at the end.  Does this say something bad about you?&nbs= p; Does it say something good about you?  Neither.  It's a dead-e= nd observation (except for the side issue of displaying my own ignorance).&= nbsp; It may sound like a point, but it's not.  It contributes nothing= to a debate.  Except when you throw in the consideration of an extend= ed time...

You see the first teenager wearing a Livestrong wrist band, you say= it's one person, that's not a trend, it'll never be a fashion, there's not= enough people doing it.  _Wait_.  *See* if it becomes a fashion,= even if it's not your style, even if none of your current friends adopt th= e style right away, before you pass judgement.  In the world of fashio= n (I presume you're not a designer or a major retailer of fashion here), yo= u'll just look silly, out-of-touch, not groovin' with the beat of the next = generation, or whatever they say these days.  Certainly you won't make= new friends.  In this metaphor applied to the world of Lojban, you co= me off as obstructionist and short-sighted; Lojban is always eager to make = new friends.  (Yes, there is a compliment in there; you are a big voic= e in Lojban.)

I suggest that saying "one person is too few" is a premat= ure judgement.

Lojban is uniquely vulnerable to the pursuit of perfection at the cost
o= f interoperability.

'Vulnerable'... as if that were a = weakness.  We have diverging values here.  Not too long ago, the = number of people who spoke Lojban was zero, so interoperability was not a c= oncern at all.  It was *just* a pursuit of perfection.  For those= of us with grand hopes for the language (that it will last a long time and= gain a significant following), the number of current speakers of Lojban is= _still_ a very small number.

Speaking personally, I think one of the biggest misperceptions *I* = had is a matter of timing.  Lojban has gone past its design stage.&nbs= p; In doing that, it has lost something, some of its appeal.  It still= _seems_ very fresh, fresh enough that design can still be worked on, but i= t has really gotten quite static.  Such is the way of things.

Lo= kadin is the latest reformer among countless.

o/ = (I'm sure my address is still recognised by at least some...)

Eve= ntually Lokadin will realize that no one is reading what he writes
in Lo= jban because there do not exist a sufficiently large number of
expert Lojbanists yet.

You cannot make that determ= ination.  You do not know that 'no one' will read his posts.  It = is an invalid statement.  Writing such a thing is overgeneralising, - = even insulting.  You accuse me of being a snob, that I am superficial,= that I will reject the substance of lOkadin's posts simply because of thei= r form.  Either that, or you call me 'no one'.  I've been called = 'no-one' before.  I don't like it, but on the balance, it is more of a= bad reflection on the society that says it than on the ones they say it to ------=_Part_20587_3312225.1163037763438--