From lojban-out@lojban.org Thu Nov 16 06:05:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7209 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2006 13:55:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Nov 2006 13:55:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Nov 2006 13:55:22 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GkhHg-0004sR-Mq for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 05:28:04 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GkhGC-0004pi-8e; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 05:26:39 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 16 Nov 2006 05:26:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GkhFf-0004pK-BZ for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 05:25:59 -0800 Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com ([64.233.162.197]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GkhFW-0004oz-E4 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 05:25:58 -0800 Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id r28so277888nza for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 05:25:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.47.19 with SMTP id u19mr945458qbu.1163683544821; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 05:25:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.44.8 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Nov 2006 05:25:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <737b61f30611160525i24a19ao873918345aed7212@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 07:25:44 -0600 In-Reply-To: <455AFCD0.8080402@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20061114173413.83990.qmail@web81314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <455A35B4.5020804@lojban.org> <455A4F10.2080600@gmail.com> <737b61f30611141955l74a5edc2h3121344c355f3d06@mail.gmail.com> <455AFCD0.8080402@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 13194 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: pdf23ds@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "Chris Capel" From: "Chris Capel" Reply-To: pdf23ds@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: "la" rule X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=zfklSnzfThAKWWzYY7lltYf_FOrvKfMbo8balEL2HNcjmnuTSQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 27628 On 11/15/06, And Rosta wrote: > Chris Capel, On 15/11/2006 03:55: > > I have a bit of difficulty pronouncing a glottal stop in the middle of > > a speech stream, and getting it to sound different from without, or > > from being apparent enough. For instance, the two > > > > la.clsn > > laclsn > > > > sound pretty much the same the way I say them. > > In my English English accent, _lash_ is [laS] and _latch_ is [la?S], so one can at least say that the contrast is not exotic. In Lojban, where /./ appears in difficult clusters you could insert the buffer vowel (I use [Y]), so e.g. /la.clsn/ could be [la?YSlsn]. That's what I tend to do with the /./ at the end of cmevla, e.g. {la .alis. cu} [la?alis?YSu]. I wonder whether your pronunciation is very different from mine. The way I say "latch", I would fear using it as a pronunciation method in Lojban because of the possible confusion with the "tc" cluster, and ending up with something sound like "la tclsn" instead of "la .clsn". The difference between a glottal stop and a consonant that contains a complete airway restriction isn't apparent to me. For instance, besides the final "n", what would the difference be between "la tcidu" and "la .cidun"? Maybe a recording would make the difference plain enough, though. Chris Capel -- "What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?" -- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet) To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.