From lojban-out@lojban.org Wed Nov 01 09:22:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 97549 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 17:18:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 17:18:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 17:18:45 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GfJNI-0006Yg-Jq for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 01 Nov 2006 08:55:36 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GfJK0-0006Wa-QE; Wed, 01 Nov 2006 08:52:21 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 01 Nov 2006 08:52:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GfJJY-0006WN-IN for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 01 Nov 2006 08:51:44 -0800 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.175]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GfJJS-0006WC-C9 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 01 Nov 2006 08:51:44 -0800 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 23so1731977ugr for ; Wed, 01 Nov 2006 08:51:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.78.204.20 with SMTP id b20mr9151449hug; Wed, 01 Nov 2006 08:51:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.78.124.16 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 08:51:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 11:51:35 -0500 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_20561_12600985.1162399895579" References: <70A00219-019E-42A6-96A1-5D8A347100A5@umich.edu> X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-archive-position: 12887 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: andrii.z@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin" From: "Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin" Reply-To: andrii.z@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: Stress of the penultimate syllable X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=mHEXlb9r67--504v8Wk1CTWLlQEBibBPGG3O0I-xI1URu9PT-g X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 27327 ------=_Part_20561_12600985.1162399895579 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 11/1/06, Alex Martini wrote: > > > On Nov 1, 2006, at 5:11 AM, Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin wrote: > > > > On 10/31/06, Alex Martini wrote: > > > > u'u Yes, the dotted/spaceless style has a reason for accents. If you can > > actually read and use it, I suppose it is technically correct. > > ki'u I was describing the variants that people actually *use*, either in > > the corpus (the collection of published Lojban text) or in this mailing > > list. To date, I've never seen anyone use this style, except for special > > cases like {lonu} where they drop a non-stopping space between two cmavo. > > > > I use it. > > OK - there is one user. But unless you can make some pretty good > arguments, it's still harder to read and non-standard. > pretty good argument is you are an English user, a stress-timed language, and lOjban is not a stress timed language, it has mandatory stress, unlike English. The main issue with sticking majuscules (aka big letters or upper case) in > the middle of text is that is messes with how we read. Fluent readers don't > actually read letter by letter anymore, but by shape of the letter outlines. > And all the vowels are normally shorter than a majuscule or an ascender > (like h). So making them tall by capitalizing them means I can no longer > read the text fluently, but have to slow down and look at individual letters > like I did in elementary school again. Which is much slower. > are you a fluent lOjbanist? Is thIs tExt EAsier tO rEAd? I thInk nOt, becAUse yOU cannOt rEAd It At A > nOrmal pAce bUt hAve to slOw dOwn. (It Also lOOks prEtty Ugly.) > please read previous thread on penultimate syllables. English text does NOT emphasize the penultimate syllable. It is stress timed. so you have stress at regular intervals. There don't seem to be any defined rules as to where you should put emphasis in English, so it makes no sense to capitalize English. Try it, write out some text in English in all lower case, normal mixed case, > accented case, and all upper case. The normal mixed case is what you've > trained your brain to read best after years of near constant practice. It > doesn't take kindly to messing that up. > above statement. .e'o try to stay informed, check Wikipedia before you start capitalizing random vowels in English. As for bandwidth/parsing advantages to the undotted style, I don't really > > see them. The first step (an early step? not sure of specifics) of parsing > > Lojban into structure *is* to find the word boundaries. So if you use > > undotted, the parser just puts the spaces back in anyhow. Check out either > > jbofi'e or the official DOS parser. > > > > I've actually made my own parser. > [ li'o ] > > > > Yes, but can it parse Lojban without finding word boundaries? > the point of a parser is to break a string apart into atoms. My parser can parse lOjban without spaces. The above question is contradiction by definition(of the word parse). -- ta'o(by the way) We With You Network at: http://lokiworld.org .i(and) more on Lojban: http://lojban.org mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is lOkadin) ------=_Part_20561_12600985.1162399895579 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 11/1/06, Alex Martini <alexjm@umich.edu> wrote:

On Nov 1, 2006, at 5:11 AM, Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin wrote:



On 10/31/06, Alex Martini <alexjm@umich.edu> wrote:
u'u Yes, the dotted/spaceless style has a reason for accents. If you can actually read and use it, I suppose it is technically correct.

ki'u I was describing the variants that people actually *use*, either in the corpus (the collection of published Lojban text) or in this mailing list. To date, I've never seen anyone use this style, except for special cases like {lonu} where they drop a non-stopping space between two cmavo.

I use it.
OK - there is one user. But unless you can make some pretty good arguments, it's still harder to read and non-standard.

pretty good argument is you are an English user, a stress-timed language, and lOjban is not a stress timed language, it has mandatory stress, unlike English.

The main issue with sticking majuscules (aka big letters or upper case) in the middle of text is that is messes with how we read. Fluent readers don't actually read letter by letter anymore, but by shape of the letter outlines. And all the vowels are normally shorter than a majuscule or an ascender (like h). So making them tall by capitalizing them means I can no longer read the text fluently, but have to slow down and look at individual letters like I did in elementary school again. Which is much slower.

are you a fluent lOjbanist?

Is thIs tExt EAsier tO rEAd? I thInk nOt, becAUse yOU cannOt rEAd It At A nOrmal pAce bUt hAve to slOw dOwn. (It Also lOOks prEtty Ugly.)

please read previous thread on penultimate syllables. English text does NOT emphasize the penultimate syllable. It is stress timed. so you have stress at regular intervals. There don't seem to be any defined rules as to where you should put emphasis in English, so it makes no sense to capitalize English.




Try it, write out some text in English in all lower case, normal mixed case, accented case, and all upper case. The normal mixed case is what you've trained your brain to read best after years of near constant practice. It doesn't take kindly to messing that up.

above statement. .e'o try to stay informed, check Wikipedia before you start capitalizing random vowels in English.


As for bandwidth/parsing advantages to the undotted style, I don't really see them. The first step (an early step? not sure of specifics) of parsing Lojban into structure *is* to find the word boundaries. So if you use undotted, the parser just puts the spaces back in anyhow. Check out either jbofi'e or the official DOS parser.

I've actually made my own parser.
[ li'o ]

Yes, but can it parse Lojban without finding word boundaries?

the point of a parser is to break a string apart into atoms.  My parser can parse lOjban without spaces. The above question is contradiction by definition(of the word parse).





--
ta'o(by the way)  We With You Network at: http://lokiworld.org .i(and)
more on Lojban: http://lojban.org
mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is lOkadin) ------=_Part_20561_12600985.1162399895579--