From lojban-out@lojban.org Thu Nov 09 06:25:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65529 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2006 14:17:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2006 14:17:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2006 14:17:50 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GiAic-0001sW-Ek for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 09 Nov 2006 06:17:26 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GiAhl-0001rw-8p; Thu, 09 Nov 2006 06:16:41 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 09 Nov 2006 06:16:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GiAhD-0001rP-Lw for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2006 06:15:59 -0800 Received: from eastrmmtao01.cox.net ([68.230.240.38]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GiAh7-0001rD-N2 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2006 06:15:59 -0800 Received: from eastrmimpo02.cox.net ([68.1.16.120]) by eastrmmtao01.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.06.03 201-2131-130-104-20060516) with ESMTP id <20061109141555.XEKL17820.eastrmmtao01.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:15:55 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([72.192.234.183]) by eastrmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id keEz1V00X3y5FKc0000000; Thu, 09 Nov 2006 09:15:01 -0500 Message-ID: <4553388D.6030007@lojban.org> Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 09:17:49 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20061109041814.GE23121@chain.digitalkingdom.org> In-Reply-To: <20061109041814.GE23121@chain.digitalkingdom.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 12985 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: Bob LeChevalier From: Bob LeChevalier Reply-To: lojbab@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: "la" in names X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=6MjQquhQzXxYB95HYQEvY8ExcHWq_X-kaz-6UDoZSEPLwFNrHg X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 27426 Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Thu, Nov 09, 2006 at 06:40:28AM +0300, Yanis Batura wrote: >>I don't understand you, people. You are not at all confused by the >>fact that Lojban doesn't have VERY MANY sounds present in other >>languages, but the fact that you can't spell your name exactly as >>in English make you sick. >> >>Lojban doesn't allow {la}, {lai} and {doi} in names, and that's >>all. If even almost everyone, including me, of course, cannot >>adhere to this rule, that is our problem, and not the language's. >>Just wait, and the sence of correct lojbanization will develop in >>us. > > Not a single Lojbanist has *ever* internalized this rule. We know > this because *every* major Lojbanist has made this mistake, and it > showed up in "What Is Lojban?", which was proofread by at least 3 > major Lojbanists. I suspect one could find a few other critical errors that have been made by *every* major Lojbanist. Omission of cu or a required ku come to mind. But then every fluent English speaker makes grammatical errors once in a while, and when not controlled, makes such errors *frequently*. > We have no evidence, at all, that anyone can internalize this rule. > It's not about whether the rule is good or not. I don't mind in the > slightest that "la" isn't allowed; that's the least of what we have > to do to Lojbanize names. The problem is not what the rule > requires, the problem is that *we can't follow it*, and we've > *proven* we can't. Lojbanization of names is an act of translation, and not speaking Lojban. Speaking in Lojban, one never has to Lojbanize names, because they are already Lojbanized. Eventually, the skilled Lojbanist will likely use la'o quotes for foreign names rather than the current practice of trying to Lojbanize everything. > A rule we can't follow that, in the not-following, breaks > audio-visual isomorphism is, to me, a total travesty of one of the > most important goals of the language. Whether someone gets to use > the "la" sound in their name or not is totally irrelevant to my > concerns. We're *breaking the language*, and it has to stop. We are not breaking the language, so long as everyone agrees that it is an error when they do so (whether or not people make that error a lot is irrelevant). The language is broken when people are not sure what is the correct rule, not when people know the correct rule but err in their usage in ways that are still understandable. When a computer starts parsing your speech stream and makes mistakes because you stuck a la in there, ***then and only then *** will we find out whether people can overcome the bad habit of slipping up on the la rule. (I am sure that most programmers can think of idiosyncratic rules in their favorite computer language which they only mastered when the computer called them on it too many times.) Until then, it is recognized as an error after the fact, but it is an error of little consequence, usually leading to humor and not misunderstanding. lojbab To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.