From lojban-out@lojban.org Tue Nov 14 13:42:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 97367 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2006 21:36:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.34) by m40.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2006 21:36:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2006 21:36:54 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Gk5uU-0002DQ-0F for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 13:33:38 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Gk5t5-00029h-ST; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 13:32:21 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 14 Nov 2006 13:32:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Gk5sc-00029G-6P for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 13:31:42 -0800 Received: from centrmmtao06.cox.net ([70.168.83.78]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Gk5sW-000296-5g for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 13:31:41 -0800 Received: from eastrmimpo02.cox.net ([68.1.16.120]) by centrmmtao06.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.06.03 201-2131-130-104-20060516) with ESMTP id <20061114213138.PUD14538.centrmmtao06.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:31:38 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([72.192.234.183]) by eastrmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id mlWf1V00U3y5FKc0000000; Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:30:41 -0500 Message-ID: <455A35B4.5020804@lojban.org> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:31:32 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20061114173413.83990.qmail@web81314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20061114173413.83990.qmail@web81314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 13168 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: Bob LeChevalier From: Bob LeChevalier Reply-To: lojbab@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: "la" rule X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=pu69aK6rYC18aedqbXCSoExdqmyG6I8P-y2MQ9tjLo2reXfyEA X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 27602 John E Clifford wrote: > --- Bob LeChevalier wrote: > >>John E Clifford wrote: >> >>>I thought {lai} could take stress only if explicitly marked by {ba'e}. That there would also >> >>be >> >>>stress on {tl} I pass over as obvious. >> >>ba'e is totally independent of any sort of vocal stress. >> >>Why would there be stress on "tl"? It is a monosyllable. Lojban's >>default is penultimate stress, with no stress defined for monosyllabic >>words. > > Because it is a name and thus receives sentential stress and probably inherent one as well, rule > or no rule. I don't know what you mean by those forms of stress. Lojban has ONLY penultimate syllable stress. No other form of stress has any semantic or grammatical or pragmatic meaning BY DEFINITION (which is why we have ba'e for the other kind of stress that I knew needed representation), and no other form of stress is allowed which conflicts with the one required form. There is no reason in Lojban to stress a monosyllable name, or to not stress a monosyllable name. > It seems to me that no trick so far discussed will work in practice: we will not remember to > exempt certain syllables from names, we will forget pauses (though making {la} and the like to be > learned as {la.} where the period is a genuine glottal stop might improve things). That is the essence of the problem. Without a solution that unquestionably will work and be used in practice, the justification for changing the baselined status quo isn't there. Those who like the pause-all-the-time solution can implement the practice of pausing all the time to show that in fact people can and will learn to do so, which could at least partially negate this argument; that is a legal dialect. I suspect such a dialect would be aesthetically displeasing, but we'd be able to judge by example. > Again, using > something that occurs nowhere else (the glottal stop is a difficult-to-use-or-remember-or-hear > example) seems the safest route (and can be used, as was pointed out some time ago, to deal with > borrowings as well). We tried the "something that occurs nowhere else" trick for fu'ivla compounding, using ",iy," as the hyphen. I think someone eventually came up with a "somewhere else" and it was aesthetically displeasing to people as well. The only surefire way to do that is to mark names with a cmavo that uses a phoneme found nowhere else in the language, including the letteral word for the phoneme. I wouldn't even consider trying to sell that to the community, since I wouldn't support it myself under any conditions I can imagine. lojbab To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.