From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon Nov 13 17:30:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 9509 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2006 01:22:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2006 01:22:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2006 01:22:26 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GjmrN-0005Fa-N5 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 17:13:09 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Gjmqh-0005E8-T5; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 17:12:34 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 13 Nov 2006 17:12:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GjmqH-0005D5-40 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 17:12:01 -0800 Received: from centrmmtao01.cox.net ([70.168.83.83]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GjmqA-0005Co-C0 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 17:12:00 -0800 Received: from eastrmimpo01.cox.net ([68.1.16.119]) by centrmmtao01.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.06.03 201-2131-130-104-20060516) with ESMTP id <20061114011156.UUEJ2189.centrmmtao01.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 20:11:56 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([72.192.234.183]) by eastrmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id mRBA1V00K3y5FKc0000000; Mon, 13 Nov 2006 20:11:12 -0500 Message-ID: <455917D5.8080607@lojban.org> Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 20:11:49 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <325816428.20061113190842@mail.ru> <20061113171203.GD24729@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <4558B5C3.9020006@kli.org> <87d57rxf3v.fsf@gmail.com> <4558E2A1.9010907@lojban.org> <20061113221830.GK24729@chain.digitalkingdom.org> In-Reply-To: <20061113221830.GK24729@chain.digitalkingdom.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 13130 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: Bob LeChevalier From: Bob LeChevalier Reply-To: lojbab@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: "la" rule X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=82hpHZLrtWllGNf7DxwV_Omh2Evdd3jSESm31Q-KKX64QyQqVg X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 27562 Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Mon, Nov 13, 2006 at 04:24:49PM -0500, Bob LeChevalier wrote: > >>But if people were regularly running their text through checkers >>that caught such errors, I indeed think that people would stop >>making the errors. Human beings don't parse like machines, and >>thus accept things that a machine might not find legal. That just >>means that we need machines to help teach us to follow some of the >>rules. > > 1. The official parser *does* accept {la.stivn.laitl.} as la > followed by two cmene. So if you're right that all we need is > computer training, we've already been having it for some time now, > and it agrees with the proposed rule and not current rule. That's what I said - the official parser had minimal sophistication for lexing. > 2. When you've written such a tool, let me know. Right now, you > have no evidence that this is a human learnable rule; you're just > having a pipe dream. Of course it is a human-learnable rule. You underestimate human capabilities. The issue seems to be whether it is a rule that humans will learn to follow *without error*, and at this point I would argue that we aren't sure that humans can learn when elided cu and elided terminators are valid without error. Humans don't detect those errors too easily either, and they become important in the longer and more complex sentences that a "native" Lojban speaker will likely use. lojbab To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.