From lojban-out@lojban.org Wed Nov 08 18:45:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7750 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2006 02:43:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m39.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2006 02:43:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2006 02:43:19 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ghzmj-0000kE-VU for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 08 Nov 2006 18:36:58 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GhzlB-0000ik-Up; Wed, 08 Nov 2006 18:35:27 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 08 Nov 2006 18:35:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ghzkj-0000iX-AR for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 08 Nov 2006 18:34:53 -0800 Received: from pi.meson.org ([66.134.26.207]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ghzke-0000iQ-6H for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 08 Nov 2006 18:34:53 -0800 Received: (qmail 17376 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2006 02:34:46 -0000 Received: from nagas.meson.org (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (1000@192.168.1.101) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 9 Nov 2006 02:34:46 -0000 Message-ID: <455293C5.9040104@kli.org> Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 21:34:45 -0500 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061025) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <45528614.5000104@phma.optus.nu> In-Reply-To: <45528614.5000104@phma.optus.nu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 12960 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mark@kli.org X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "Mark E. Shoulson" From: "Mark E. Shoulson" Reply-To: mark@kli.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Lojban customary measuring units X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=S3UU9-egOTqhoYum6cJZQMDLkkhtCDgYtmwYrgArlDbrecUK4Q X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 27401 Pierre Abbat wrote: > What were measuring practices like in Lojbanistan before it went > metric? There are few units, so it's hard to tell. Other customary > systems have a lot more units. > > Take length, for instance. The English system has point, line, > barleycorn, inch, foot, ell, yard, fathom, rod, chain, furlong, mile, > and league. The Lojban system has gucti and minli. I'm not sure how much you're joking... The Lojban gutci (note spelling) and minli exist not because of a mythical pre-metric retrohistory of Lojbanistan, but in order to accomodate discussions that deal with local units of whatever the locale is. Naturally it isn't going to have all the possible different units, it could never catch up. You need to decide if your unit of measurement is some kind of gutci or some kind of minli, and either create a lujvo or fu'ivla for it (using gutc- or minl- for the rafsi if it's a type 4(?)) or else just make sure you define your terms with your interlocutors during the discussion I suppose these two units and some simple lujvo of them suffice. A gutci is for measuring things more or less on the human scale. For measuring household objects, buildings, etc. And minli is for things on a larger scale, like long trips and land-masses. For things outside of both scales, we can use things like pagygutci maybe for inch-like things? mikrygutci (with the first part meant loosely) for micron-scale things? megdyminli or something for more Astronomical Unit or light-year scale? I'm sure there are better choices than these, and they don't even have to be unique. I mean that "pagygutci" or whatever needn't be specifically "inch"; it depends on the context just as gutci does. > For weight the Indian system has tola, chittak, seer, and maund. The > English system has grain, scruple, dram, ounce, pound, and ton (not > counting Avoirdupois and Troy versions). The ancient Hebrew system had > gerah, beqa, pim, sheqel, mina, and talent (kikkar). The Lojban system > has only bunda. (pim? I know my ancient Hebrew measures; that one doesn't sound familiar. And it isn't in http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/ I must be forgetting something.) > I think I found one of the missing units: the fi'urvo is 1/4 dekpu. > Anyone know what the others are, or how many gucti are in a minli, or > square gucti in a kramu or cubic gucti in a dekpu? *fi'urvo? "fi'u" is the rafsi for "cfipu," and yes, this word is confusing. *rvo isn't the rafsi for anything. It looks like you tried to make the number "fi'u vo" into a lujvo by binding it together with an r-hyphen. You can't do that; lujvo are made out of rafsi, not cmavo (though some cmavo have rafsi that look the same) And the answer to your questions, of course, is that it depends on what you choose to be meaning as a gutci or minli or whatever. If we're talking merkyminli (and merkygutci), then there are plainly murebino gutci. If we're with a Talmudic xebryminli, only reki'o of the corresponding gutci. ~mark To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.