From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat Dec 02 16:32:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 28417 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2006 00:30:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2006 00:30:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.66.169) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2006 00:30:28 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GqfCK-0006IF-5d for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 02 Dec 2006 16:27:12 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GqfBJ-0006HI-18; Sat, 02 Dec 2006 16:26:13 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 02 Dec 2006 16:26:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GqfAr-0006Gz-1c for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 02 Dec 2006 16:25:41 -0800 Received: from web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.122]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GqfAl-0006Gs-L1 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 02 Dec 2006 16:25:40 -0800 Received: (qmail 81883 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Dec 2006 00:25:29 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: rG7qowQVM1mpexMOKwXmifeBlEQQ4rcnXDvjIv8VOC1MhSGqxRuuRenlO.QAWGnEoARTIr4vkjV9iTyEsTOjBjPSIOk6iEERF5Vf2oWI.S2Frzsa2s5tM6ULi56nV.1J.6l8B9FVlX3fHUQ- Received: from [70.237.196.59] by web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 02 Dec 2006 16:25:29 PST Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 16:25:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4571B24F.7070700@lojban.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <915055.79558.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-archive-position: 13292 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.66.169 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: S-W/ was Re: (no subject)/Borges X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=1y4NPiBFN82WcBhLithCbPouwTHAz2EMShraQg4lxQNAPyh-sg X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 27730 Skipping my usual screeds on this topic, I'll just summarize. The effects on world-view and habitual behavior is attributed to obligatory grammatical categories of a language. So, vocabulary plays no role in the matter at all (JCB's elaborate but basically unsuccessful gismu building notwithstanding). Jim's path to a neutral position in this area was to reduce the number of obligatory grammatical categories as far as possible/ feasible. And to provide the means of presenting all of the possible array of categories in a give area with about equal complexity -- as options. This is done pretty well for things like time and space perceptions (Loglan/Lojban can do absolute positions and directions with approximately the same amount of apparatus as the relative ones (you need to set a 0, but that would presumably be a given in a culture that did this sort of thing). And the same goes for several other areas. But, of course, it fails radically for the most fundamental pasrt of ontology. Grammatically, Lojban/Loglan is the most SAE language available: everything is a unitary thing with properties and relations: no masses (in the usual sense), no processes (except as special things), no sensual atoms (ditto) and so on through the rane of known ontologies, let alone the unknown. To be sure, all of these other views can be constructed, but, as noted, always as a strange kind of thing -- grammatically speaking. Lojban is great for testing S-W on Menominee or maybe Chinese but not so hot for English (etc. through the usual SAE). I'm not sure what a neutral language, without a fundamental ontology -- or with all fundamental ontologies equally available -- would look like, but L?L ain't it. Which is not a practical problem, since no one has come up with a reasonable version of S-W that is not either trvial or blatantly false. (Hey, I manged to get most of my screeds in anyhow). To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.