From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Dec 08 17:32:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70116 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2006 01:32:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.36) by m36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2006 01:32:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.66.169) by mta10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2006 01:32:36 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Gsr4X-000432-9U for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 08 Dec 2006 17:32:13 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Gsr2Y-00040L-OY; Fri, 08 Dec 2006 17:30:17 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 08 Dec 2006 17:30:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Gsr24-0003zf-8c for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2006 17:29:40 -0800 Received: from phma.optus.nu ([166.82.175.165] helo=ixazon.dynip.com) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Gsr21-0003zH-0g for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2006 17:29:40 -0800 Received: from [192.168.7.3] (unknown [192.168.7.3]) by ixazon.dynip.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23C6ECE85E for ; Fri, 8 Dec 2006 20:29:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <457A1145.9070500@phma.optus.nu> Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 20:28:37 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.5 (Windows/20050711) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-archive-position: 13320 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: phma@phma.optus.nu X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.66.169 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: Pierre Abbat From: Pierre Abbat Reply-To: phma@phma.optus.nu Subject: [lojban] Interaction of {na} and {su'o} X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=HQ0iurNQWUyczP7IIMH5puqZhBh9eqn2FbP-SMht5gCz2brBTg X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 27758 Xorxes came up with this on the beginners' list. I'm not sure what it means, so it's beyond the scope of beginners. So here it is: --- The {naku} versions are equivalent and quite uncontroversial, yes. The problem is the meaning of {na} in front of the selbri. The official rule is that it's equivalent to {naku} in front of everything, as you say, but this rule is problematic. Let's consider this example: su'o danlu cu xanto gi'e na xarju What does that say? There are three operators with scope to consider: {su'o}, {gi'e} and {na}. It can't be the case that {su'o} has scope over {gi'e}, and {gi'e} has scope over {na}, and {na} has scope over {su'o}. One of them has to give. Which one? The most sensible for me is su'o > gi'e > na, i.e. that there are some animals that are elephants and not pigs. I don't know what interpretation the offficial rule supporters give to that sentence. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.