From lojban-out@lojban.org Sun Dec 03 12:14:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53190 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2006 20:10:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2006 20:10:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.66.169) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2006 20:10:10 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GqxSq-00085G-4z for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 03 Dec 2006 11:57:28 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GqxQn-00082j-1p; Sun, 03 Dec 2006 11:55:27 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 03 Dec 2006 11:55:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GqxQJ-00082K-2m for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 03 Dec 2006 11:54:51 -0800 Received: from web81311.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.127]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GqxQF-00082D-IE for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 03 Dec 2006 11:54:50 -0800 Received: (qmail 98640 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Dec 2006 19:54:46 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: qsc0SBMVM1li8vzfy_P9221qyOB3IR1tglr3ekaYu9Zy1S0_Q57ANrG4Rg2jHlihVA-- Received: from [70.237.196.59] by web81311.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 03 Dec 2006 11:54:46 PST Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 11:54:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20061203160612.86C7A2F912@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <509079.97879.qm@web81311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-archive-position: 13304 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.66.169 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: sign language in Lojban X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=I4atF1AG1sqnXuAINWLXUzCqr2QMXsf-5ZcaOlTkqVvHl0mOWQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 27742 Interesting _ I didn't keep up (and never was fluent in any real sense).The idea of phonology for ASL is, I assume merely analogical: breaking gestures down into presumed components and the like (but probably so much harder, given that much of the vocal apparatus has few other uses while the gesture tools are used for all sorts of incidental thing). But I think the basic point -- that no one would send a message in written ASL -- is an important one to make, like the point about IPA eearlier: that no one would use it as the alphabet for an actual language.But in each case it is i9mportant for the description of the language. More interesting (and you say less devweloped) is whether ASL has a syntax different from English, even Signed English and whether that might influence writing even if the words used were ordinary English, not cheirography. --- Arika Okrent wrote: > Some quick credentials so you know where I'm coming from: I'm fluent in ASL, I got an MA in > Linguistics at Gallaudet (the deaf university in DC, all our linguistics classes were conducted > in ASL -- that's why I had to become fluent), and I know a lot of deaf people. None of which > makes me the final authority on anything, but there it is. > > Stokoe's system is not a full writing system--you wouldn't write a letter in it, but it is a > good rough pass at a phonological transcription for individual signs. It is based on breaking a > sign down into four components -- handshape, location, movement and orientation. > > It fell out of favor when sign language phonologists started using Liddell and Johnson's model, > based on autosegmental phonology (what phonologists did in the 80's). It is based on breaking a > sign into a linear string of movements and holds -- each defined as a cluster of other features. > > I'm not up on what sign language phonologists use these days. Probabaly some version of Liddell > and Johnson, or some version of the currently trendy "optimality theory" way of doing phonology. > > Anyway, these are only good for doing phonological analysis. If you want to do syntax you just > use English glosses for the signs, superscripted with stuff that may endure over multiple signs. > And you would never use these systems to write a letter or anything. > > In fact, you wouldn't use any sign writing system for that. Many have tried to come up with > one, but none have gotten any traction. It may be fun to think about the challenges of > representing a 3D, temporally simultaneous language in a 2D linear medium, but as a practical > matter, it's all moot. Deaf people simply have no need or want for sign writing. Especially > with current technology allowing video conversation. > > -arika > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com > > To: lojban-list@lojban.org > > Subject: [lojban] sign language in Lojban > > Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 07:53:07 EST > > > > > > In a message dated 12/3/2006 4:22:19 AM Central Standard Time, lojbab via > > ecartis@digitalkingdom.org writes: > > > > > > > The real test might be if someone tries to express all of the features and > > > assumptions of sign language into Lojban. This was something that came up > > > once (I'm assuming it wasn't you - the person, whose name I can't remember, > > > but s/he was especially interested written transcriptions of sign language, > > > I think based on choreography notation - seemed to think Lojban could meet > > > the challenge, if in no other way by coming up with verbal representations > > > of written sign language). You may be in a better position to evaluate, > > > having examined sign language linguistically. > > > > > > > If anyone knows about this, please post it. I'm very interested in both > > writing sign languages and signing spoken languages. > > > > stevo > > > > > > > ************ > Arika Okrent > arika@okrent.com > http://www.wickedoasis.org/arika > > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.