From lojban-out@lojban.org Sun Dec 03 15:27:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2852 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2006 23:26:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2006 23:26:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.66.169) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2006 23:26:34 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GqzRj-0003SV-Mm for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 03 Dec 2006 14:04:27 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GqzQQ-0003RA-AH; Sun, 03 Dec 2006 14:03:10 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 03 Dec 2006 14:02:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GqzPy-0003Qi-8M for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 03 Dec 2006 14:02:38 -0800 Received: from web81312.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.128]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GqzPt-0003QX-LW for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 03 Dec 2006 14:02:38 -0800 Received: (qmail 16815 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Dec 2006 22:02:32 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: WAgxnnIVM1mFa1oS2T0_cDne5CQnAAIxM7mArCkRNrczAoS5kDOUlAWI9_JD3hSt5N4t7hSMJX.w5qAEndJSy3zMHqu4yO1QE48QSOAejvYlRdPb5NHOL2G7w8VUVAZfb8TIg_AM96h9O24- Received: from [70.237.196.59] by web81312.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 03 Dec 2006 14:02:32 PST Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 14:02:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20061203213635.A9A922F91C@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <655464.13031.qm@web81312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-archive-position: 13306 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.66.169 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: sign language in Lojban X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=6K_x2xlzlLj1c-aF3atft8vdskICvVzKE87nCih0PM_gPEx7AQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 27744 Sorry; my sloppy, not yours: the undetdeveloped question is whether the syntax of ASL affects the syntax of English written by fluent (better, native) users of ASL and, eventually, whether thees differences at any level affect the metaphysical perceptions. (Looking for a long-buried book on Labanotation, I came across one of Stokoe's papers in SIL or so on the ASL which clearly lays out some major features of it particular grammar.) --- Arika Okrent wrote: > > > More interesting (and you say > > less devweloped) is > > whether ASL has a syntax different from English, even Signed English and > > whether that might > > influence writing even if the words used were ordinary English, not > > cheirography. > > Whoa. I usually try to limit my list responding playtime to once per day, but > I feel compelled to respond here because if I have somehow communicated that > the question of whether ASL syntax is different from English is not good and > settled, then I have completely failed in my capacity as sign language > spokesperson. > > ASL syntax is totally different from English syntax. However, when linguists > talk about ASL syntax, they use English glosses for the signs for the sake of > convenience. Meaning I will write: > > [MONEY]topic [I HAVE]neg. > 'As for money, I don't have any > > All caps are used to remind you that MONEY is just a label for the ASL sign > for "money"--you could just as well call it Zarcon74, but that wouldn't be as > convenient. 'topic' means the topicalization marker (an eyebrow raise/head > tilt) lasts for the duration of the articulaion of MONEY. 'neg' means a > negation marker (a head shake) lasts for the duration of the rest. It's as if > I wrote Spanish like this: > > NO HAVE[1st pers] NOTHING OF MONEY. > > You could totally describe Spanish syntax using this type of notation. > > Signed English wishes it were the flip side of this coin -- a way of speaking > English using ASL signs as glosses for the English words. Except that it's > hapazardly executed -- usually performed simultaneously with speech, which > means a lot of important signs get dropped, which means the deaf people > watching it lose about 30% of the information, which means it's a horrible > bastard 'language' that has helped rob a generation of deaf kids of a good > education. > > -arika > > ************ > Arika Okrent > arika@okrent.com > http://www.wickedoasis.org/arika > > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.