From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri Jan 05 07:05:30 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 05 Jan 2007 07:05:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H2qd3-0005Su-QX for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 05 Jan 2007 07:05:10 -0800 Received: from web81311.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.127]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H2qcx-0005Sj-M4 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 05 Jan 2007 07:05:09 -0800 Received: (qmail 56433 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Jan 2007 15:04:57 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=6EZrao2mo7nf3Zr84RxR2ofpjoIWc1RLrSbYnQltuDMxvZdntt7Lj+5p0ESUexGTKL/b8yvcs9NIy9jePrKKCEi0IQGEjR29YsbRegf4Ld04dv2W0cONbRPBJD2A0Qu886h5Q5DFiANO5KX7ePmfE8tqMpsA0Y62oT7Hp/QjAa0=; X-YMail-OSG: ymo7ZwUVM1lEFXYTbwlRJNaeX7fetgWm27.aZYGIoa4No7rU5agQwqDISqamzEObw2GCIuOnv1F6pA6Sds7VW8iHnA.G2BdcWq2Z5sXMyCULs3qTLmN7D6D7JDSx4hWe.JssrKQHdaJotH8- Received: from [70.237.196.59] by web81311.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 05 Jan 2007 07:04:56 PST Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 07:04:56 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] Re: Duty, promice etc... To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <3ccac5f10701050608x71a6381p89a54e54e2239e65@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <95093.56426.qm@web81311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 X-Spam-Score-Int: -6 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 13489 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list I am not sure that these sentences need to be treated just like the English; that is, I am not sure that the nouns "promise" and "duty" need to be represented as such in the Lojban. To do one's duty is to do what one is pbligated to do by virtue of one's position in some scheme; to break ones promise is to fail to do (when the opportunity arises) what one is obligated to do by virtue of one's verbal commitment to do it. So both of them are about doing the se bilga and differ only in the te bilga (I suppose that is). In the case of promises, we have another word which enfolds the obligation and its ground into one, {nupre}. As for the English, the words "promise" and "duty" are polysemous, covering the making of the promise, what is promised and some abstraction (don't we have a generic abstraction operator? Yes, {su'u}) which combines what is promised with the whole network of conditions which making a promise calls into being. This last is probably best summed up in "the sate of being obligated to do whatever by virtue of a promise". But I don't think it plays a direct role in expressing the otion of breaking a promise. --- Cyril Slobin wrote: > coi rodo > > How to translate nouns like "duty" or "promise"? Or, more precise, how > to translate sentences like "She does her duty" or "He breaks his > promise"? I believe the answer has something to do with "bilga" and > "nupre", but what exactly? "le se nupre" is "what is promised", not > promise itself. Promise is not an event ("le nu nupre"), not a > statement ("le du'u nupre"), it is something else. But what? > > ... Veni narratum i quentam mirabilem vobis ... > > -- > Cyril Slobin > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.