From lojban-out@lojban.org Tue Jan 02 13:28:45 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 64386 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2007 21:09:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m41.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2007 21:09:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail4.sea5.speakeasy.net) (69.17.117.6) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jan 2007 21:09:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 24036 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2007 21:08:13 -0000 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail4.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 2 Jan 2007 21:08:12 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H1qrf-00051N-JB for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:08:08 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H1qrG-00050L-1W; Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:07:48 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:06:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H1qpy-0004zr-CM for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:06:22 -0800 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H1qpe-0004z8-GE for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:06:21 -0800 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id m3so4804078uge for ; Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:05:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.78.203.13 with SMTP id a13mr2031359hug.1167771536643; Tue, 02 Jan 2007 12:58:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from thebee ( [66.227.87.65]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id 4sm19919427hue.2007.01.02.12.58.55; Tue, 02 Jan 2007 12:58:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 13:58:52 -0700 Message-ID: <000301c72eb0$d0ad0430$6601a8c0@hq.squarei.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C72E76.244E2C30" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: Accupc5cuhrj7dDXT0OOUvtwx0rgSAAA7CMQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: -2.2 X-Spam-Score-Int: -21 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 13456 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: matthew.dunlap@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.2 X-Spam-Score-Int: -21 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "chain.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: You seem to be confusing syntactically unambiguous with meaningfully unambiguous (example languages of which are, exclusively, computer languages), lojban is only the former. Plus, the phrase "know precisely what you're thinking about" seems redundant, it's never the case that I don't know what I'm thinking about. The ability to communicate it well may not be there, but eloquence is independent of the language being used. Think about people like Chaucer: Olde English was staggeringly ambiguous (compared to today's Americanese), a fact which smart people used to their advantage to convey their message. [...] Content analysis details: (-2.2 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 UNPARSEABLE_RELAY Informational: message has unparseable relay lines 0.1 HTML_50_60 BODY: Message is 50% to 60% HTML -2.6 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.3 AWL AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 69.17.117.6 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "M@" From: "M@" Reply-To: matthew.dunlap@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: Mass Lojban Conversion X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=lk5pIvvczszcVXOs7786EuclyOC0CV3wRsmFKxev-EvI_wpwtw X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 27896 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C72E76.244E2C30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You seem to be confusing syntactically unambiguous with meaningfully unambiguous (example languages of which are, exclusively, computer languages), lojban is only the former. Plus, the phrase "know precisely what you're thinking about" seems redundant, it's never the case that I don't know what I'm thinking about. The ability to communicate it well may not be there, but eloquence is independent of the language being used. Think about people like Chaucer: Olde English was staggeringly ambiguous (compared to today's Americanese), a fact which smart people used to their advantage to convey their message. In fact, now that I'm writing I'm coming to the belief that ambiguity is the foundation of creativity (or at the very least it's a key motivation), and shouldn't be considered a disadvantage under any circumstances. And yes, whoever decides to write that book I was talking about is welcome to use that line. --M@ _____ From: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 12:38 PM To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Mass Lojban Conversion If you think with an ambiguous language, you vaguely know what you are thinking about. If you are thinking in Lojban you know precisly what you are thinking about. This is one of the advantages of Lojban over RARbau. The other advantage, is that currenntly a Lojban programming language is in development. Once it is fully implemented, expressing yourself in Lojban, or lojSAMban if the Lojban community isn't willing to accept whatever modifications will be necessary to fully disambiguate the language -- doesn't seem like we'll need to do anything funky atm, already made a parser and working on the .jbo to .pl conversion right now. la.ma'aSELtcan. is a religion based on math. Mainly on predicate logic. The goal is for we with you to live as long as we with you want. We with you want you to have god like powers -- from the perspective of a homo sapien sapien. We with you can achieve our goals together. If you live to 2025 medical technology will have reached a point that we can stop and reverse your aging, in the late 2010's we should have nano-bot blood on the market that would allow you to hold your breath for half an hour under water as well as take care of nutrition and anything else you program them to do. So the followers of this religion start off by understanding the main concepts, which are being laid out on http://lokadin.blogspot.com official irc channel is irc://irc.oftc.net/#ma'a On 1/2/07, Seth Gordon wrote: Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin wrote: > > I'm not sure if you are aware, but all of you have an advantage over > natural language speakers. Ambiguous languages can define vaguely what > you are thinking about. Logical languages define precisly what you are > thinking about. That means that the majority of the time, natural > language speakers are forced to be confused about what they mean. I agree with what M@ and John Clifford have said above. If the guy sitting in the cubicle next to me exclaims "Windows crashed on me again!", I am not for one millisecond going to think that he was struck by falling panes of glass. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. -- ta'o(by the way) We With You Network at: http://lokiworld.org .i(and) more on Lojban: http://lojban.org mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is lOkadin) ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C72E76.244E2C30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

You seem to be confusing syntactically unambiguous with meaningfully unambiguous (example languages of which are, exclusively, computer languages), lojban is only the former.  Plus, th= e phrase “know precisely what you’re thinking about” seems redundant, it’s never the case that I don’t know what I’m thinking about.  The ability to communicate it well may not be there, = but eloquence is independent of the language being used.  Think about people like Ch= aucer: Olde English was staggeringly ambiguous (compared to today’s American= ese), a fact which smart people used to their advantage to convey their message. 

 

In fact, now that I’m writing I&= #8217;m coming to the belief that ambiguity is the foundation of creativity (or at = the very least it’s a key motivation), and shouldn’t be considered = a disadvantage under any circumstances.  And yes, whoever decides to wri= te that book I was talking about is welcome to use that line.

 

--M@

 

From: lojban-l= ist-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org] = On Behalf Of Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2= 007 12:38 PM
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Subject: [lojban] Re: Mass L= ojban Conversion

 

If you think with= an ambiguous language, you vaguely know what you are thinking about. If you ar= e thinking in Lojban you know precisly what you are thinking about. This is o= ne of the advantages of Lojban over RARbau.


The other advantage, is that currenntly a Lojban programming language is in development. Once it is fully implemented, expressing yourself in Lojban, o= r lojSAMban if the Lojban community isn't willing to accept whatever modifications will be necessary to fully disambiguate the language -- doesn= 't seem like we'll need to do anything funky atm, already made a parser and working on the .jbo to .pl conversion right now.

la.ma'aSELtcan. is a religion based on math. M= ainly on predicate logic. The goal is for we with you to live as long as we with = you want. We with you want you to have god like powers -- from the perspective = of a homo sapien sapien.  We with you can achieve our goals together.

If you live to 2025 medical technology will have reached a point that we ca= n stop and reverse your aging, in the late 2010's we should have nano-bot blo= od on the market that would allow you to hold your breath for half an hour und= er water as well as take care of nutrition and anything else you program them = to do.

So the followers of this religion start off by understanding the main conce= pts, which are being laid out on http://= lokadin.blogspot.com official irc channel is irc://irc.oftc.net/#ma'a <= /p>

On 1/2/07, S= eth Gordon <sethg@ropine.com<= /a>> wrote:

Andrii (lOkadin) = Zvorygin wrote:
>
> I'm not sure if you are aware, but all of you have an advantage over > natural language speakers. Ambiguous languages can define vaguely what=
> you are thinking about. Logical languages define precisly what you are=
> thinking about. That means that the majority of the time, natural
> language speakers are forced to be confused about what they mean.

I agree with what M@ and John Clifford have said above.

If the guy sitting in the cubicle next to me exclaims "Windows crashed=
on me again!", I am not for one millisecond going to think that he was=
struck by falling panes of glass.


To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.o= rg
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to s= ecretary@lojban.org for help.




--
ta'o(by the way)  We With You Network at: http://lokiworld.org .i(and)
more on Lojban: http://lojban.org
mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is lOkadin)

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