From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat Jan 06 07:37:24 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 82377 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2007 15:33:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Jan 2007 15:33:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail4.sea5.speakeasy.net) (69.17.117.6) by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jan 2007 15:33:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 14643 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2007 15:33:23 -0000 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail4.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 6 Jan 2007 15:33:23 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H3DXh-0005px-2V for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 06 Jan 2007 07:33:11 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H3DWn-0005jX-NF; Sat, 06 Jan 2007 07:32:29 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 06 Jan 2007 07:30:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H3DUL-0005gu-GY for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 06 Jan 2007 07:29:43 -0800 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.185]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H3DU1-0005g0-97 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 06 Jan 2007 07:29:37 -0800 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c31so13749678nfb for ; Sat, 06 Jan 2007 07:29:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.113.6 with SMTP id l6mr2488079buc.1168097357710; Sat, 06 Jan 2007 07:29:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.115.20 with HTTP; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 07:29:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560701060729q5c88241bi8f13ad6a79a4a76e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 12:29:17 -0300 In-Reply-To: <20070106025933.16835.qmail@web81313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560701051450v6f30c761v3691f4b69289e100@mail.gmail.com> <20070106025933.16835.qmail@web81313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Score-Int: -24 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 13518 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Score-Int: -24 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "chain.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: On 1/5/07, John E Clifford wrote: > --- Jorge Llambías wrote: > > > > Which English expressions involving the noun "promise" should > > not be translated by {lo se nupre} in Lojban? > > As noted earlier, "make a promise" and probably "break a promise" > and "keep a promise." [...] Content analysis details: (-2.5 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 UNPARSEABLE_RELAY Informational: message has unparseable relay lines -2.6 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] 0.1 AWL AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 69.17.117.6 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: Duty, promice etc... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=Hf1N5mbsvLA5pBhTULnDFQI2UA0roEaM-viRYC3DBdFAe3CQnw X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 27957 On 1/5/07, John E Clifford wrote: > --- Jorge Llambías wrote: > > > > Which English expressions involving the noun "promise" should > > not be translated by {lo se nupre} in Lojban? > > As noted earlier, "make a promise" and probably "break a promise" > and "keep a promise." If we want to translate those as {broda lo brode}, it seems to me that {lo se nupre} is the obvious choice for {lo brode} and the problematic bit would be what to use for {broda}, since {zmadu}, {porpygau} and {ralte} would be too metaphorical. We'd have to go with something more mundane such as {nupre lo se nupre}, {nalzu'e lo se nupre} and {zukte lo se nupre}. Or we could avoid using that form and say {nupre da} in the first case. But I still don't see what else you could use for {lo brode}. Certainly not {lo nu nupre} or {lo su'u nupre} as far as I can see. What I'm trying to say is that if we want to translate "a promise" as a sumti, {lo se nupre} would seem to be the only? choice, and not {lo NU nupre} for some NU. > all of these can be done (equivalently though > not similarly) with {nupre} or even {lo se nupre}but that doesn't mean > that {lo se nupre} is good Lojban for "promise" -- the context has to > change too much. I guess that's what I don't see yet. > > Which English expressions involving the noun "obligation" should > > not be translated by {lo se bilga} in Lojban? > > "Has an obligation" at least, probably the other main cases (but > "obligation" is different from "promise" is a couple of ways: it is more > general, need not involve something verbal (and so may not have a > definite beginning), can end in other ways that fulfillment or release > and so on. "Has an obligation" would not be {ponse lo se bilga}, but the problem again seems to be with {ponse}, not with {lo se bilga}. Again the most obvious choice for me would be the redundant {bilga lo se bilga} or just {bilga da}. But "obligation" would not be {lo NU bilga}. Or maybe you are thinking of something like {ckaji lo ka bilga}, "has the property of being obliged"? Is that how you read the "has" of "has an obligation", like the one of "has a property"? mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.