From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Jan 05 19:11:44 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 47934 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2007 03:04:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Jan 2007 03:04:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net) (69.17.117.9) by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jan 2007 03:04:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 29245 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2007 03:02:26 -0000 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 6 Jan 2007 03:02:26 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H31oy-0006WC-Bq for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 05 Jan 2007 19:02:15 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H31oA-0006NM-7d; Fri, 05 Jan 2007 19:01:30 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 05 Jan 2007 19:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H31ma-0006LZ-3b for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 05 Jan 2007 18:59:44 -0800 Received: from web81313.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.39]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H31mV-0006LR-MX for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 05 Jan 2007 18:59:43 -0800 Received: (qmail 16837 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Jan 2007 02:59:33 -0000 Message-ID: <20070106025933.16835.qmail@web81313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 55FDmgMVM1nN8BUsbBtxOf2IGmMJ927UrVcuz9T6gxd_eQfGC8h5.MnOfmbjeD_k7P2b4lrqICcKnOr1yZFbaBPv8j9KwKpGzKjLZNSTazgNMVeilDCM1cujTyE4h6VSdZHE3U9pyY5xWoDCcJqLx_6kVGR7.I6dkZVj7g61Jp1zK5x61TYzrEYFEABW Received: from [70.237.196.59] by web81313.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 05 Jan 2007 18:59:33 PST Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 18:59:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <925d17560701051450v6f30c761v3691f4b69289e100@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.7 X-Spam-Score-Int: -6 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 13515 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -0.7 X-Spam-Score-Int: -6 X-Spam-Bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "chain.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: --- Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 1/5/07, John E Clifford wrote: > > > All of this suggests that we may want to rethink just how > > the Lojban words {nupre, bilga} and maybe others are related > > to the English. {nupre} is fine for the speech act, perhaps, > > but has to be used with care in translating other expressions > > involving "promise." > > Which English expressions involving the noun "promise" should > not be translated by {lo se nupre} in Lojban? [...] Content analysis details: (-0.7 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 UNPARSEABLE_RELAY Informational: message has unparseable relay lines -2.6 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] 0.2 DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE RBL: Envelope sender in abuse.rfc-ignorant.org 1.7 DNS_FROM_RFC_POST RBL: Envelope sender in postmaster.rfc-ignorant.org -0.0 AWL AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 69.17.117.9 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: Duty, promice etc... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=PJViVctf0XRDqIzI_07qV-xLTeYf0zZOtEmOtdjWaNeoCWnQWw X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 27954 --- Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 1/5/07, John E Clifford wrote: > > > All of this suggests that we may want to rethink just how > > the Lojban words {nupre, bilga} and maybe others are related > > to the English. {nupre} is fine for the speech act, perhaps, > > but has to be used with care in translating other expressions > > involving "promise." > > Which English expressions involving the noun "promise" should > not be translated by {lo se nupre} in Lojban? As noted earlier, "make a promise" and probably "break a promise" and "keep a promise." all of these can be done (equivalently though not similarly) with {nupre} or even {lo se nupre}but that doesn't mean that {lo se nupre} is good Lojban for "promise" -- the context has to change too much. > Which English expressions involving the noun "obligation" should > not be translated by {lo se bilga} in Lojban? "Has an obligation" at least, probably the other main cases (but "obligation" is different from "promise" is a couple of ways: it is more general, need not involve something verbal (and so may not have a definite beginning), can end in other ways that fulfillment or release and so on. > > Incidentally, the use of "promise" for the thing promised is > > becoming stranger and stranger to my ear: as it is claimed for > > various contexts, it seems less and less plausible at home. > > "I got what he promised me" means something very different > > from "I got his promise to me," for example. > > "What he promised me" can refer to some event, in which case > it is a promise (= lo se nupre), but it can also refer to an object, > in which case it is a kind of sumti raising for "what he promised Of course (see earlier) That is, spelling it out in Lojban would be {tu'a ...}. > "He did what he promised me" > ko'a pu zukte lo se nupre be ko'a bei mi But not "He did his promise" That is"promise"is not treasted as what he promised, {le se nupre}. > "I got what he promised me" > mi pu cpacu lo poi'i ko'a nupre lo nu dunda ce'u mi > mi pu cpacu da poi ko'a nupre lo nu dunda ke'a mi And again, not "He got his promise" which means something very different. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.