From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon Jan 08 21:04:05 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 10890 invoked from network); 9 Jan 2007 04:57:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m31.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Jan 2007 04:57:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail8.sea5.speakeasy.net) (69.17.117.10) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Jan 2007 04:57:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 32612 invoked from network); 9 Jan 2007 04:57:14 -0000 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail8.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 9 Jan 2007 04:57:13 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H492r-0005Ph-8H for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 08 Jan 2007 20:57:09 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H492M-0005NR-8U; Mon, 08 Jan 2007 20:56:45 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 08 Jan 2007 20:55:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H490n-0005Mm-7o for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 08 Jan 2007 20:55:01 -0800 Received: from smtp1.pcisys.net ([216.229.32.113]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H490g-0005MR-Fw for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 08 Jan 2007 20:55:00 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.106] (cwap-206-53-21-117.cos.pcisys.net [206.53.21.117]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp1.pcisys.net (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l094soJT002254 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 21:54:51 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <45A32064.4070604@pcisys.net> Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 21:56:04 -0700 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (X11/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1.3 X-Spam-Score-Int: -12 X-Spam-Bar: - X-archive-position: 13527 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: ssimmons@pcisys.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Score-Int: -24 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "chain.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: I have been working on translating chemical element articles on the lojban wikipedia, and Pier has brought up an interesting point, which I think wider circulation is called for. In discussing the periodic table, and the elements, one commonly refers to element groups, which are typically the elements within a column., as well has elements [Note: "group" refers to an ordered sequence of elements with similar properties, that also generally share a geometric arrangement within the periodic table]. Some of these element groups have gismu representing them: [...] Content analysis details: (-2.5 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 UNPARSEABLE_RELAY Informational: message has unparseable relay lines -2.6 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] 0.1 AWL AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 69.17.117.10 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: Stephen David Simmons From: Stephen David Simmons Reply-To: ssimmons@pcisys.net Subject: [lojban] kliru, sodna, navni, etc. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=E3fyoCk48SwfEv0L_fcnSxEmWsK02TfxR-1pVfS-7yDKOD0Ezg X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 27967 I have been working on translating chemical element articles on the lojban wikipedia, and Pier has brought up an interesting point, which I think wider circulation is called for. In discussing the periodic table, and the elements, one commonly refers to element groups, which are typically the elements within a column., as well has elements [Note: "group" refers to an ordered sequence of elements with similar properties, that also generally share a geometric arrangement within the periodic table]. Some of these element groups have gismu representing them: sodna - alkali metals - default sodium kliru - halogens - default chlorine navni - nobel gases - default neon If we are to distinguish between the meaning of "halogen" and the meaning of "chlorine" should we develop a lujvo for the sequence of chlorine-like atoms (inluding fluorine, chlorine, bromine, iodine, or astatine), or should we develop a lujvo for chlorine independent of halogens in general. I don't think it is appropriate to rely on context to decide. jbovlaste has "kliru" <-> "chlorine" and "selkliru" <-> "halogen type". I don't see "selkliru" coming into common usage. I have assumed that the appropriate words would be "kliru" <-> "chlorine" and "klirypoi" <-> "halogen". Perhaps, a lujvo should be used to enforce the default. Similar arguments apply to "sodna", resulting in "sodnypoi"; the generalized classes of alkalis, including all basic substances is referred to as "jilka". For the alkalines, I've been using "mlijilpoi" to represent the alkaline earths, as they are milder forms of the alkalis. Perhaps that should be "mlisodnypoi" instead, because to allow "jilka" to be more of an opposite of "slami". I also use "binjinpoi" for the "transition metals", as they are between the alkali/alkalines and the non-metal/metalloids/near metals; and "cnobinjinpoi" for the actinides/lanthanides, as they are part of the period that adds electrons in deeply buried subshells; and "jbijinpoi" for poor-metals or near-metals such as tin and aluminum (this class is somewhat artificial, and the English language group has already recognized "poor" as a bad distinguishing characteristic); and "si'irjinpoi" for the coinage metals (copper, silver, and gold); and ninpoi for the noble gases. Other groups are typically named for the lightest element in the group. I considered using "girzu" and "klesi" instead of "porsi", but they don't imply an intrinsic ordering that "porsi" implies. I also tend to think of "girzu" refering to a group of individual atoms, as one might think of mixtures, solutions, alloys, or In addition, there are two groups within the transition metals which aren't so much ordered vertically as spatially; these are the platinum group and the refractory metals. For these, I think usage of klesi may make more sense. Other groupings of elements are based on the phase of matter (solid, liquid, gas); whether they are half metals, mostly metallic, or non-metallic, whether they are radioactive or not, etc. I think klesi makes sense for these as well. Does this seem like a reasonable usage? Are these lujvo too broad for these meanings? Within wikipedia, there are a variety of usages, that reflect the evolution of my thoughts, and I felt it was appropriate to get a broader consensus before systematizing them, in case the basis is poor. --Stephen Simmons To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.