From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon Jan 01 11:58:28 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 72324 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2007 19:42:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m38.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2007 19:42:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail6.sea5.speakeasy.net) (69.17.117.8) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2007 19:42:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 13221 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2007 19:37:29 -0000 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 1 Jan 2007 19:37:29 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H1SyK-0003vC-UF for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 01 Jan 2007 11:37:25 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H1Sxt-0003sp-Cc; Mon, 01 Jan 2007 11:37:05 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 01 Jan 2007 11:35:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H1SwM-0003sJ-H0 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 01 Jan 2007 11:35:23 -0800 Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.240]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H1SwD-0003s5-Gz for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 01 Jan 2007 11:35:22 -0800 Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b8so1417444ana for ; Mon, 01 Jan 2007 11:35:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.131.6 with SMTP id e6mr5315753and.1167680112150; Mon, 01 Jan 2007 11:35:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from thebee ( [71.196.217.119]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id c9sm22821844ana.2007.01.01.11.35.10; Mon, 01 Jan 2007 11:35:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 12:34:58 -0700 Message-ID: <004701c72ddb$ed499a20$6401a8c0@hq.squarei.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0048_01C72DA1.40EAC220" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcctwC54xhfneSpNSJGeDrEg5GXT6wAFU0TQ X-Spam-Score: -2.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: -19 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 13450 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: matthew.dunlap@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Score-Int: -20 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "chain.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Alrighty, I'll bite, what's the advantage? "I speak a syntactically unambiguous language, which allows me to _________, whereas you can't." Not only do I believe that there is no valid answer to fill in the blank, but I believe such an answer is precluded by the definition of language (but I'm still a little fuzzy on exactly what that definition is, linguistically speaking). And I _know_ it's precluded by the practical implementation of all natural languages (and most conlangs), that is, by the amazing adaptability of languages. Is it theoretically possible to be confused about what someone means? Absolutely, and it doesn't matter what language they use as much as it does peoples' grasp of the language. Does it happen a majority of the time? Not a chance, or even close. [...] Content analysis details: (-2.1 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 UNPARSEABLE_RELAY Informational: message has unparseable relay lines 0.1 HTML_50_60 BODY: Message is 50% to 60% HTML -2.6 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.4 AWL AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 69.17.117.8 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "M@" From: "M@" Reply-To: matthew.dunlap@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: Mass Lojban Conversion X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=Dam1jD0LMjUbQVxQY_W63Gn-IEa3GQGhDAZKRhs9oIMEkwG01A X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 27889 ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C72DA1.40EAC220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alrighty, I'll bite, what's the advantage? "I speak a syntactically unambiguous language, which allows me to _________, whereas you can't." Not only do I believe that there is no valid answer to fill in the blank, but I believe such an answer is precluded by the definition of language (but I'm still a little fuzzy on exactly what that definition is, linguistically speaking). And I _know_ it's precluded by the practical implementation of all natural languages (and most conlangs), that is, by the amazing adaptability of languages. Is it theoretically possible to be confused about what someone means? Absolutely, and it doesn't matter what language they use as much as it does peoples' grasp of the language. Does it happen a majority of the time? Not a chance, or even close. Society would be a completely different place if you had a less than 50% chance of being understood if you sat down at a bar and said "Gimme beer" (which, if you're counting, has 1 made up word, 1 invalid implication that the beer would be given freely, is a sentence fragment, contains no articles, doesn't specify a target, and probably a half dozen other unintended nuances that lojban wouldn't jive with). Actually now that I use those words it occurs to me that there's a science fiction book in that idea somewhere: just what would such a society be like? If you were even a little bit clever about it the race that was usually misunderstood would somehow parallel the challenges of today's machine interfaces. They could then be encountered by a race from jboplini and depending on the message you want to send the rest of the book is based on the details, and any more thought on the matter will launch me onto a tangent which might result in writing a book. One last thought on the book (not really, but it's the last one I'll write), I can't imagine any situation in which jbopre as the protagonists could achieve the entirely patronizing outcome I always associate with the desires of underdog supporters. now if the jbopre were the enemy. you'd have to tread carefully, but it could be done. The way I see it, lojban's only real advantage in the grand scheme is how it forces your mind to work, an internal advantage having nothing to do with communication. However, because languages are plastic, accommodating minds that can't work that way and people's inherent laziness would reduce the language to something that wouldn't be of much benefit to your mind compared to any other natlang. But I could be wrong, it certainly wouldn't be the first time. --M@ _____ From: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 9:13 AM To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Mass Lojban Conversion You know guys, I am serious, people really buy this stuff. Logical languages have a powerful advantage. There is also a Lojban facebook group, perhaps you want to join there, and I can redirect some traffic there. I'm not sure if you are aware, but all of you have an advantage over natural language speakers. Ambiguous languages can define vaguely what you are thinking about. Logical languages define precisly what you are thinking about. That means that the majority of the time, natural language speakers are forced to be confused about what they mean. As speakers of a logical language you can help them to learn Lojban and break free of the ties of RARbau. pe'u CUSku mi when you join the facebook group poi la.LOJban .a la.ma'aSELtcan. zo'onai mu'omi'e.LOKadin. On 12/31/06, Timothy Hobbs wrote: have you heard of the devils dictionary? To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. -- ta'o(by the way) We With You Network at: http://lokiworld.org .i(and) more on Lojban: http://lojban.org mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is lOkadin) ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C72DA1.40EAC220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Alrighty, I’ll bite, what’= s the advantage?  “I speak a syntactically unambiguous language, w= hich allows me to _________, whereas you can’t.”

 

Not only do I believe that there is no valid answer to fill in the blank, but I believe such an answer is preclude= d by the definition of language (but I’m still a little fuzzy on exactly w= hat that definition is, linguistically speaking).  And I _know_ it’s precluded by the practical implementation of all natural languages (and mos= t conlangs), that is, by the amazing adaptability of languages.  Is it theoretically possible to be confused about what someone means?  Absolutely, and it doesn’t matter what language they use as much as i= t does peoples’ grasp of the language.  Does it happen a majority = of the time?  Not a chance, or even close. 

 

Society would be a completely differen= t place if you had a less than 50% chance of being understood if you sat down= at a bar and said “Gimme beer” (which, if you’re counting, h= as 1 made up word, 1 invalid implication that the beer would be given freely, is= a sentence fragment, contains no articles, doesn’t specify a target, and probabl= y a half dozen other unintended nuances that lojban wouldn’t jive with).&= nbsp;

Actually now that I use those words it occurs to me that there’s a science fiction book in that idea somewhe= re: just what would such a society be like?  If you were even a little bit clever about it the race that was usually misunderstood would somehow paral= lel the challenges of today’s machine interfaces.  They could then be encountered by a race from jboplini and depending on the message you want t= o send the rest of the book is based on the details, and any more thought on = the matter will launch me onto a tangent which might result in writing a book.&= nbsp; One last thought on the book (not really, but it’s the last one IR= 17;ll write), I can’t imagine any situation in which jbopre as the protagon= ists could achieve the entirely patronizing outcome I always associate with the desires of underdog supporters… now if the jbopre were the enemy̷= 0; you’d have to tread carefully, but it could be done.

 

The way I see it, lojban’s only = real advantage in the grand scheme is how it forces your mind to work, an intern= al advantage having nothing to do with communication.  However, because languages are plastic, accommodating minds that can’t work that way a= nd people’s inherent laziness would reduce the language to something that wouldn’= t be of much benefit to your mind compared to any other natlang.

 

But I could be wrong, it certainly wou= ldn’t be the first time.

 

--M@

 

From: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygi= n
Sent: Monday, January 01, 20= 07 9:13 AM
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Subject: [lojban] Re: Mass L= ojban Conversion

 

You know guys, I = am serious, people really buy this stuff. Logical languages have a powerful advantage.  There is also a Lojban facebook group, perhaps you want to join there, and I can redirect some traffic there.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but all of you have an advantage over natura= l language speakers. Ambiguous languages can define vaguely what you are thin= king about. Logical languages define precisly what you are thinking about. That means that the majority of the time, natural language speakers are forced t= o be confused about what they mean. As speakers of a logical language you can he= lp them to learn Lojban and break free of the ties of RARbau.

pe'u CUSku mi when you join the facebook group poi la.LOJban .a la.ma'aSELtcan.

zo'onai mu'omi'e.LOKadin.


On 12/31/06, Timothy Hobbs <tim.thelion@g= mail.com> wrote:

have you heard of= the devils dictionary?


To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.o= rg
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to s= ecretary@lojban.org for help.




--
ta'o(by the way)  We With You Network at: http://lokiworld.org .i(and)
more on Lojban: http://lojban.org
mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is lOkadin)

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