From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Sep 21 06:32:39 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7100 invoked from network); 21 Sep 2007 13:32:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (69.147.108.202) by m50.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Sep 2007 13:32:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail3.sea5.speakeasy.net) (69.17.117.5) by mta3.grp.re1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Sep 2007 13:32:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 26976 invoked from network); 21 Sep 2007 13:31:37 -0000 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail3.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 21 Sep 2007 13:31:37 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IYibW-0005gQ-J2 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:31:35 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IYiat-0005cq-FH; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:31:03 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:29:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IYiZA-0005ck-C3 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:29:08 -0700 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IYiZ7-0005cR-0F for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:29:08 -0700 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 4so638763nfv for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:29:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.86.12 with SMTP id j12mr366667fgb.1190381341931; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.86.13 with HTTP; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560709210629t4ca3f6a4vd4acc35a8923873e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:29:01 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 13832 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 69.17.117.5 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] natfe & talsa X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=JKMFXjJ5sHzPHimdSTCg4VZ7bgJSyq6zWPf15ndjVZGEJxWEWA X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 28305 On 9/21/07, Daniel Goetzmann wrote: > > Two gismu questions: > Have I understood correctly that natfe is not agentive (du'u in x1, no > person) but in the sense of "The results of the experiments contradict the > theory"? Yes, although I think every time I have seen it used, it has been with the incorrect meaning of "person x1 denies that x2 is true". I don't think English "deny" is really used with the sense of {natfe}, so it was a poor choice of keyword. > I'm not sure about the meaning of talsa: Is it challenge/defy > (German:herausfordern/fordern) (ji-)or is it challenge/question/dispute > (German:bestreiten, bezweifeln, in Frage stellen)? I've always understood it as the former, and that's how I translated it to Spanish, but then that requires an action in x3, not a property: "To call to engage in a contest, fight, or competition: challenged me to a game of chess. To invite with defiance; dare: challenged him to contradict her. See Synonyms at defy." The second sense: "To take exception to; call into question; dispute: a book that challenges established beliefs." fits better with a poperty in x3, but not so well with requiring a person in x1. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.