From lojban-out@lojban.org Thu Oct 11 09:17:30 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 90531 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2007 16:17:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (69.147.108.201) by m55.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Oct 2007 16:17:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail6.sea5.speakeasy.net) (69.17.117.8) by mta2.grp.re1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Oct 2007 16:17:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 20808 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2007 16:17:16 -0000 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 11 Oct 2007 16:17:16 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Ig0in-0004Oi-Ut for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 09:17:14 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Ig0iO-0004Kf-90; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 09:16:51 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 11 Oct 2007 09:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Ig0gy-0004KZ-2y for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 09:15:20 -0700 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.184]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Ig0gs-0004KC-Ee for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 09:15:19 -0700 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 4so459851nfv for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 09:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.82.16 with SMTP id f16mr1571404fgb.1192119309221; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 09:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.86.13 with HTTP; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 09:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560710110915r1a797cfdi7e1d77e73e71b844@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:15:09 -0300 In-Reply-To: <470D2D3B.9040305@lojban.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20071010172453.GC13890@digitalkingdom.org> <925d17560710101137v7813af0bmbe3c08d212cf1bb8@mail.gmail.com> <470D2D3B.9040305@lojban.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 13876 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 69.17.117.8 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: Archivist/Founders: Clarification of "fuzme", please. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=i46-3B76dLTiK1UUYXA1thoz_NfnlcNPoKUqj4Yhu6Ewer2BUA X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 28352 On 10/10/07, Bob LeChevalier wrote: > > The word "blamed" fits in there as a synonym, > but probably is malfuzme, because we do not "blame" someone for > fulfilling their responsibilities, only for failing them; Presumably {malfuzme} would mean something closer to "guilty" than to "blamed". If you are blamed but innocent, you would not be {malfuzme}, only accused of being {malfuzme}. x1 is responsible for undesirable x2 to judge/authority x3 x1 is guilty of x2 in the eyes of x3 x1 is blamed for x2 by x3 The problem with "blame" is that you don't need any authority in order to blame someone for something. If x3 has no authority over x1, then x3 can very well blame x1 for x2, but that by itself does not make x1 accountable to x3 for x2. This is tricky because "guilty" is somewhere in the middle too. > we honor them > (a different sense than sinma, which is esteem that is NOT necessarily > tied to a specific action). {zanfuzme} would have to be something like "recognized/acknowledged". x1 is responsible for desirable x2 to judge/authority x3 x1 is recognized/acknowledged for x2 by x3 > I took up the leadership of the Loglan/Lojban community out of a sense > of bilga, not in response to any x3 authority. Perhaps a _sense_ of bilga, but you probably were under no actual obligation. {do na pu ca'a bilga lo nu jatna le lojbo cecmu}. Your sense of duty could just as well be described as a sense of responsibility. The way I would describe it is that you assumed the responsibility: {do gasnu lo nu do fuzme lo nu jatna le lojbo cecmu}. You gave the community the authority to hold you responsible. > I stepped down because > of fuzme - an x3 community that held me responsible for my failings in > business management and in leading the organization into the 21st > century of Internet-based activity. do zanfuzme lo nu ze'u jatna kei le lojbo cecmu mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.