From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon Dec 17 15:16:17 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 4012 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2007 23:16:16 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.95) by m55.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2007 23:16:16 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mail3.sea5.speakeasy.net) (69.17.117.5) by mta16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2007 23:16:16 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 24665 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2007 23:16:16 -0000 X-Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail3.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 17 Dec 2007 23:16:16 -0000 X-Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J4PC1-0001d9-VO for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:16:15 -0800 X-Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J4PBP-0001Yg-PE; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:15:45 -0800 X-Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:14:47 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J4PAc-0001Ya-Px for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:14:47 -0800 X-Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.154]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J4PAW-0001YJ-KW for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:14:46 -0800 X-Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id e12so311051fga.0 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:14:38 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.86.98.18 with SMTP id v18mr6975058fgb.18.1197933278930; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:14:38 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.86.86.13 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:14:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560712171514o126e4ab1mdf301be1973b754f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:14:38 -0300 In-Reply-To: <200712171720.44510.phma@phma.optus.nu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <200712171602.42691.phma@phma.optus.nu> <925d17560712171328r181fe4dfg7c4bdfdf97edcc99@mail.gmail.com> <200712171720.44510.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14027 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 69.17.117.5 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: nth letter of the alphabet X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=pl2S6gHT9RpxIbCPsB1ZSRy0uNALKRst5Sc7ttJHjCPhFS1M3Q X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 28506 On Dec 17, 2007 7:20 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Monday 17 December 2007 16:28, Jorge Llambías wrote: > > denpa bu, on the > > other hand, does correspond to a phoneme. It only occurs at the beginning > > or end of words, but then y'y never occurs at the beginning or end of words > > (I like to think of them as complementary allophones). > > In utterances longer than single words, they are not allophones. {mi citka le > stagi na.o le rectu} and {mi citka le stagi na'o le rectu} are both > grammatical and parse differently. Are the English phrases "less pots" and "less spots" pronounced differently? (aspirated vs. unaspirated p?) Do they thus contain different phonemes? Not that it matters for anything really, but according to wikipedia: "A common test to determine whether two phones are allophones or separate phones relies on finding so-called minimal pairs: words that differ only by the phones in question", so it appears to be different words, not diferent utterances, that are relevant. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.