From lojban-out@lojban.org Wed Dec 12 08:18:51 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 31148 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2007 16:18:51 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.94) by m55.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2007 16:18:51 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net) (69.17.117.9) by mta15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2007 16:18:51 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 8428 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2007 16:18:47 -0000 X-Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 12 Dec 2007 16:18:47 -0000 X-Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J2UII-0007V0-3A for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:18:46 -0800 X-Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J2UHi-0007Qk-Qt; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:18:17 -0800 X-Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:16:41 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J2UGH-0007Qe-1D for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:16:41 -0800 X-Received: from squid17.laughingsquid.net ([72.32.93.144]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J2UGD-0007QJ-2X for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:16:40 -0800 X-Received: (qmail 27322 invoked by uid 48); 12 Dec 2007 08:16:29 -0800 X-Received: from c-75-68-233-37.hsd1.vt.comcast.net (c-75-68-233-37.hsd1.vt.comcast.net [75.68.233.37]) by webmail.ixkey.info (Horde MIME library) with HTTP; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:16:29 -0800 Message-ID: <20071212081629.nadeo3968oo8w40k@webmail.ixkey.info> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:16:29 -0800 References: <20071208124829.a65uyiiosg0s08wc@webmail.ixkey.info> <737b61f30712111132i2a2b182fhd859a548b805d155@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <737b61f30712111132i2a2b182fhd859a548b805d155@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.1.4) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 13998 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mungojelly@ixkey.info X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 69.17.117.9 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: mungojelly@ixkey.info From: lojban-out@lojban.org Reply-To: mungojelly@ixkey.info Subject: [lojban] a ladder of Lojbans X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=CfBONJELV0k7t6uRv1OVRQOMwCDAku1tSEx_9NqksBsA8K4d8A X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 28477 Quoting Chris Capel : > Pehi juhoruhe periods shouldn't be used as required by Lojban, since > that makes the English harder to read, and juhoruhe we shouldn't use > apostrophes for y'ybu since it'll look more like English if we don't. ueru'ero'a a'u That's just the opposite of what I was thinking! I was thinking that it was good uiro'e that the cmavo in question all have either a period or an apostrophe so that they stand out a'inai from the English text. I think it really doesn't matter much either way: None of the cmavo are likely to be confused with English words no matter how they're spelled, and they're easy ahinaidai to recognize especially if you're looking ahadai for them. We can experiment e'u with different styles gahicuhi. > Ua uhi ahu dahi lo nu this expands to other types of cmavo zehu puho > Lojban starts taking over your speech! I have an idea rohe of a ladder of languages, extending from English ehe all the way to Lojban ahi. Cniglic would be the first tiny step: You can speak it fluently by knowing less than a hundred cmavo. Another idea airuhe I had for a partial-lojban is the BAI cmavo-- there's so many of them, so that alone would give you a lot of Lojbanic power. Possibly the tense system iu could stand on its own, though I haven't experimented uonai with that at all. Instead of newbies io having to try to learn all the different levels & rules & complications of Lojban simultaneously, they could grab each small part & develop real competence eherohedai eherohadai in it before moving on. I've mostly been focusing aha ("aha" can be a bit of a homonym ua) on cniglic as a very-first step, figuring that if that becomes aho a solid foundation, the next rung of the ladder can be built from there ai. This is roughly what I've been imagining though: plain English cniglic cniglic + BAI cniglic + BAI + tenses ... a few more here? ... gismu (but not lujvo) lujvo Sentence connectives au should go in there somewhere baha. Somewhere in the middle ahu there would have to be a switch from English grammar having the drivers seat to full Lojban grammar eheruhe. That could be the "la'e zoi gy." stage! Where you only know a few gismu, but you properly shoehorn everything you'd like to say into Lojban document form: .i mi jinvi la'e zoi gy. that you can say things like this, even though you don't know ehenaidai the lojban for this whole part .gy. Maybe [ju'ocu'i] we should think [ro'ero'a] from the beginning about quoting the Lojbanic parts somehow, so that more Lojban can be added [.ai] without overwhelming [.o'unairu'e] the English. Then once the Lojban expands to more than half [.ui] the quotes could switch around to the other side. mu'o mi'e bret. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.