From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon Dec 17 13:30:41 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 2972 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2007 21:30:40 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.97) by m45.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2007 21:30:40 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mail3.sea5.speakeasy.net) (69.17.117.5) by mta18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2007 21:30:40 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 26163 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2007 21:30:39 -0000 X-Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail3.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 17 Dec 2007 21:30:39 -0000 X-Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J4NXo-0006E0-2u for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:30:39 -0800 X-Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J4NXJ-0006AJ-6d; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:30:09 -0800 X-Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:28:43 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J4NVy-0006AA-Vo for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:28:43 -0800 X-Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.155]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J4NVu-00069z-Cu for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:28:42 -0800 X-Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id e12so302776fga.0 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:28:36 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.86.81.8 with SMTP id e8mr6883682fgb.32.1197926916837; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:28:36 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.86.86.13 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:28:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560712171328r181fe4dfg7c4bdfdf97edcc99@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:28:36 -0300 In-Reply-To: <200712171602.42691.phma@phma.optus.nu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <200712171602.42691.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14022 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 69.17.117.5 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: nth letter of the alphabet X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=eW1epPQIKawWEoqp5YQ1WkfJ05n-uuHvFRqScHL5Ntr_SFhU6Q X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 28501 On Dec 17, 2007 6:02 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > I wrote an article [[i]] on the Lojban Wiktionary in which the first > definition says that it's a letter of the alphabet. But is it? In English, it's correct to define the word "i" as a letter, because that's one of the menings of that word, for example as used in the sentence "i before e except after c". But in Lojban "i" does not name a letter. Or maybe Wiktionary entries are not just for words, but also for symbols? (If it was "I", pronounced /ibu/, that would perhaps be better, though it's a cmavo compound of two words in this case.) > On the English > Wiktionary, letters of the alphabet are given their ordinal number. In > Lojban, y'y, slaka bu, and denpa bu come before abu. I have no qualm with > counting y'y as a letter, but what about slaka bu and denpa bu? Slaka bu > makes no difference to the identity of a word, only its pronunciation, and > denpa bu does not occur within words. I wouldn't count slaka bu as a letter, any more than preti bu for example, because it corresponds to no phoneme of the language. denpa bu, on the other hand, does correspond to a phoneme. It only occurs at the beginning or end of words, but then y'y never occurs at the beginning or end of words (I like to think of them as complementary allophones). mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.