From lojban-out@lojban.org Tue Dec 18 12:49:41 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 66958 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2007 20:49:41 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.96) by m44.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Dec 2007 20:49:41 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mail6.sea5.speakeasy.net) (69.17.117.8) by mta17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2007 20:49:40 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 756 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2007 20:49:40 -0000 X-Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 18 Dec 2007 20:49:40 -0000 X-Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J4jNi-0003aL-EF for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 12:49:39 -0800 X-Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J4jNB-0003WZ-PE; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 12:49:09 -0800 X-Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 18 Dec 2007 12:48:16 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J4jMN-0003WR-99 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 12:48:15 -0800 X-Received: from eastrmmtao104.cox.net ([68.230.240.46]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J4jMJ-0003W6-5h for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 12:48:15 -0800 X-Received: from eastrmimpo03.cox.net ([68.1.16.126]) by eastrmmtao104.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20071218204806.SKFZ23675.eastrmmtao104.cox.net@eastrmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 15:48:06 -0500 X-Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([72.192.234.183]) by eastrmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id SLfT1Y0013y5FKc0000000; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 15:39:27 -0500 Message-ID: <47683261.4030506@lojban.org> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 15:49:37 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <737b61f30712181039r134bca55v908d10e8be1323be@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560712181117k3d8ee116yab87e6e27d6d6361@mail.gmail.com> <3ccac5f10712181136w76664b5drdd962b2c9f12df97@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3ccac5f10712181136w76664b5drdd962b2c9f12df97@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14042 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 69.17.117.8 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: Bob LeChevalier From: Bob LeChevalier Reply-To: lojbab@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: is a gismu a selbri? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=-sedqOeJlEwVPe1eKF7YOT40YO9g_jg5rgLTZyWGTI7lmw5DBg X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 28522 Cyril Slobin wrote: > On 12/18/07, Jorge Llambías wrote: >>"gismu" is also not a part of speech in the usual sense. The parts >>of speech in Lojban would be BRIVLA, CMEVLA, A, BAI, ..., ZOhU. > > > I have just now discovered that English language has such a confusion. > Correct me if I am wrong, but... In English we can speak, say, about > the SVO order. "S" is for "Subject" here, and nobody mistakes "Subject" > with "Noun", although noun can (and often do) work as subject. Actually, English speakers who don't pretend to be linguists get the words mixed up all the time. The typical American seems to take pride in his utter ignorance of grammatical terminology, which is something one studies in school, and forgets immediately after the test, never again using it in "real life". One reason I started using "selma'o" was that the phrase "part of speech" would immediately lose a large chunk of an audience of possible Lojban students (the other being that many linguists seem to eschew "part of speech" as being a sloppy term of categorization, whereas Lojban selma'o are precisely defined). > On the other hand, "V" is for "Verb", and we have one word where two > are need. I am rather illiterate in English, so the following question > may be stupid: which word relates to "verb" the same way as "subject" > relates to "noun"? In Russian there are two distinct terms, and people > are taught to distinguish them when they are about ten years ago. While SVO is colloquially referred to as "word order", it technically refers to "component order". Probably the more accurate statement about SVO for English is S = subject phrase V = verb phrase O = object phrase In answer to Cyril's question, "verb phrase" is the closest one can come to the correspondence he seeks. But I think that only a linguist talking formally will say "verb phrase" rather than "verb". lojbab To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.