From lojban-out@lojban.org Tue Dec 18 20:21:11 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 73664 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2007 04:21:10 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.94) by m36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Dec 2007 04:21:10 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mail1.sea5.speakeasy.net) (69.17.117.3) by mta15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Dec 2007 04:21:10 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 14908 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2007 04:21:10 -0000 X-Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail1.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 19 Dec 2007 04:21:10 -0000 X-Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J4qQd-0005AM-Jo for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:21:08 -0800 X-Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J4qQ9-00056l-KB; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:20:43 -0800 X-Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:19:18 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J4qOr-00056f-Cm for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:19:17 -0800 X-Received: from mu-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.134.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J4qOl-00056V-6X for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:19:17 -0800 X-Received: by mu-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id i2so5229007mue.2 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:19:09 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.78.188.10 with SMTP id l10mr11466395huf.14.1198037948835; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:19:08 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.78.141.13 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:19:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <55b258c20712182019k5d502467if6effcc154250dcc@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 23:19:08 -0500 In-Reply-To: <97f5058c0712181546m7773b121g52c1ecc3a64348ba@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <97f5058c0712181546m7773b121g52c1ecc3a64348ba@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0a8e4402c356816a X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14045 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: teucer@pobox.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 69.17.117.3 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "Craig Daniel" From: "Craig Daniel" Reply-To: teucer@pobox.com Subject: [lojban] Re: "Magician" - a case of deliberate polysemy? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=ZIJ1sarCt5iHqqrt6KhWlmaupoqaqqCsTRIsW1_zIZnNtXtj5w X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 28525 > The English word "magician" can both mean the stage magician, and the > sorcerer. Now termakfa is definitely correct for the second sense. However, > because of the tendency to believe that the stage performer actually > performs magic, I suspect it would end up applying to the stage magician as > well. This would be a case of human desires deliberately creating ambiguity. > C'est la vie. (ti selkai loi selfri?) It depends in part on whether what the stage magician does counts as makfa. A stage magician (or close-up magician or whatever) creates the illusion of something happening that could not occur without magic, but for the most part the audience doesn't believe in the magician's powers - and isn't supposed to. (A notable exception is those mentalists who "work strong", and even the ones who don't but are plagued by people believing in them despite their own assertions to the contrary. Modern audiences aren't quite as used to mental illusions as they are to the more physical kind, I guess.) Is makfa found in what appears to be happening? Or is it in the process by which it happens, which the audience may not know but expects to be non-supernatural? Or is there makfa in the sense of wonder the audience feels when they see a good magician performing? I'm inclined to the latter view, but that one may require a pe'aru'e at least. mu'o mi'e .kreig.daniyl. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.