From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon Dec 17 14:22:23 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 35238 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2007 22:22:22 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.96) by m48.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2007 22:22:22 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mail8.sea5.speakeasy.net) (69.17.117.10) by mta17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2007 22:22:22 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 19691 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2007 22:22:20 -0000 X-Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail8.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 17 Dec 2007 22:22:20 -0000 X-Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J4OLo-00083P-Vq for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:22:17 -0800 X-Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J4OLM-00081m-Eg; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:21:52 -0800 X-Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:20:57 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J4OKX-00081g-9M for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:20:57 -0800 X-Received: from phma.optus.nu ([166.82.175.165] helo=ixazon.dynip.com) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J4OKS-00081Y-Gb for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:20:57 -0800 X-Received: from chausie (unknown [192.168.7.4]) by ixazon.dynip.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50420CE859 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:20:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:20:43 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.5 References: <200712171602.42691.phma@phma.optus.nu> <925d17560712171328r181fe4dfg7c4bdfdf97edcc99@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <925d17560712171328r181fe4dfg7c4bdfdf97edcc99@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200712171720.44510.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Score-Int: 1 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14024 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: phma@phma.optus.nu X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Score-Int: 1 X-Spam-Bar: / To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 69.17.117.10 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: Pierre Abbat From: Pierre Abbat Reply-To: phma@phma.optus.nu Subject: [lojban] Re: nth letter of the alphabet X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=P4ru3vU7tmeU1L42WXBi7TmxzOtMa2LyF0FLg8QPSBMmK-fa5A X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 28503 On Monday 17 December 2007 16:28, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On Dec 17, 2007 6:02 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > I wrote an article [[i]] on the Lojban Wiktionary in which the first > > definition says that it's a letter of the alphabet. > > But is it? In English, it's correct to define the word "i" as a letter, > because that's one of the menings of that word, for example as used in the > sentence "i before e except after c". But in Lojban "i" does not name a > letter. Or maybe Wiktionary entries are not just for words, but also for > symbols? (If it was "I", > pronounced /ibu/, that would perhaps be better, though it's a cmavo > compound of two words in this case.) "i" is a letter of the Lojban alphabet, but it's under the ==sorbau== header, because it's a letter of the alphabets of many other languages too. I should put an entry for the Turkish alphabet, because the capital form in Turkish is different. The Lojban entry for "i" defines it as the sentence separating cmavo. > I wouldn't count slaka bu as a letter, any more than preti bu for example, > because it corresponds to no phoneme of the language. denpa bu, on the > other hand, does correspond to a phoneme. It only occurs at the beginning > or end of words, but then y'y never occurs at the beginning or end of words > (I like to think of them as complementary allophones). In utterances longer than single words, they are not allophones. {mi citka le stagi na.o le rectu} and {mi citka le stagi na'o le rectu} are both grammatical and parse differently. Pierre To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.