From lojban-out@lojban.org Sun Jan 13 12:02:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 22316 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2008 20:02:45 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.97) by m53.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Jan 2008 20:02:45 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mail1.sea5.speakeasy.net) (69.17.117.3) by mta18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 2008 20:02:45 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 15665 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2008 20:02:44 -0000 X-Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail1.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 13 Jan 2008 20:02:44 -0000 X-Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JE92Y-0001IT-Ql for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:02:43 -0800 X-Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JE92A-0000uU-2o; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:02:22 -0800 X-Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:01:06 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JE90z-0000uM-Sf for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:01:06 -0800 X-Received: from squid17.laughingsquid.net ([72.32.93.144]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JE90s-0000u6-P8 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:01:05 -0800 X-Received: (qmail 13615 invoked by uid 48); 13 Jan 2008 12:00:50 -0800 X-Received: from c-75-68-233-37.hsd1.vt.comcast.net (c-75-68-233-37.hsd1.vt.comcast.net [75.68.233.37]) by webmail.ixkey.info (Horde MIME library) with HTTP; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:00:50 -0800 Message-ID: <20080113120050.hwj4h6halck884g4@webmail.ixkey.info> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:00:50 -0800 References: <908929.67307.qm@web45804.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <908929.67307.qm@web45804.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.1.4) X-Spam-Score: 1.8 X-Spam-Score-Int: 18 X-Spam-Bar: + X-archive-position: 14101 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mungojelly@ixkey.info X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 69.17.117.3 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: mungojelly@ixkey.info From: lojban-out@lojban.org Reply-To: mungojelly@ixkey.info Subject: [lojban] Re: and/or X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=-lMZyV-Qt72FFPcNb6SVWR-QJLvNhiCs8ZGJhjy6TPhMX2gICw X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 28583 Quoting Opi Lauma : > I am searching for the words which I have to use to connect > arguments of sumti in the following 3 cases: OK well I need to brush up on connectives, so this is good practice for me, but don't take my answers too seriously. :) > Case I: > Bears killers came into the city. > The sentence means that every object which came into the city is > bear AND killer simultaneously. Seems easy enough: .i lo cribe je catra cu klama lo tcadu One or more things which both are bears and kill go to the city. > Case II: > Bears and killers came into the city. > The sentence means that every object which came into the city is > EITHER bear OR killer. > Here one can distinguish two sub-cases. > II A: the object cannot be bear and killer simultaneously. .i lo cribe jonai catra cu klama lo tcadu One or more things which are bears if-and-only-if-they-are-not (XOR) killers go to the city. > II B: the object can be bear and killer simultaneously. .i lo cribe ja catra cu klama lo tcadu One or more things which are bears, killers, or both simultaneously go to the city. > Case III: > Bears or killers came into the city. > The sentence means that one of the following two sentences is > correct (but I do not know which one): > 1. Bears came into the city. > 2. Killers came into the city. > Here one can also distinguish two sub-cases: > III A: I do not know which of the two above sentences is correct but > I know that only one of them is correct. .i gonai lo cribe gi lo catra cu klama lo tcadu Either bears, xor killers, go to the city. > III B: At least one (may be two) sentences are correct. .i ga lo cribe gi lo catra cu klama lo tcadu Either bears or killers or both enter the city. > P.S. > It is interesting to notice that in the case II, in the sentence, I > use "AND" and to explain the meaning of the sentence I need to use > "OR". And this strange disagreement exists not only in English. > Does it exist in Lojban? You've hit upon one of Lojban's great strengths, really. Lojban's logical connectives are very powerful and clear. The problem with them is that they're so powerful they may take a while to wrap your head around. :) You can make any truth table to connect any two propositions, you just have to learn four standard tables & how to negate either one of the propositions. Then you can learn the various cmavo to use those truth tables to connect sumti, tenses & modals, brivla within tanru, tails of bridi, and sentences. Part of why I'm continuing to study Lojban personally is that I have a feeling that Lojban's many styles of connection don't really shine until you're fluent in them. Lojban can do things in a single level of logical connection which require unusual phrasing and jargon to properly accomplish in English, but what's really impressive is that the compound units produced can be stacked & related further, infinitely. .i gonai lo cribe .a lo smacu gi lo gerku .eki'ubo lo mlatu cu klama lo tcadu Either a bear or a mouse, or both, or else a dog as well as and because of a cat, go to the city. .i ganai mi gi gonai lo cribe .a lo smacu gi lo mlatu cu klama lo tcadu I, only if ((a bear and/or a mouse) XOR a cat), go to the city. English is getting tired, see, while Lojban is just warming up. :) I'd like to see within myself someday how a fluent Lojbanist can put these astounding structures to their full use. mu'o mi'e la bret. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.