From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Feb 02 13:02:28 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:02:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JLPVL-0008Go-Jt for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:02:28 -0800 Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.152]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JLPVH-0008GY-3P for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:02:27 -0800 Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id e12so1399516fga.0 for ; Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:02:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=Z09usLKtK1044hKr1O3qnmlSUdxubaAJB2Wu0oedvM0=; b=wUMC+FrY27GMRCsQzTXTmLuPyK6VspaGuXCC9e6ufEP7jv5pzDHVkdD/32a4ieCchQLdMMjFr3Ncuw7aEQJVAOsvWn8/D/BIeVssequyfmHnd8m7Pecmm1RWLt5AK4bY6NDjleQ7GIgIPEpaoKo6Zrur7iS2V0YefB/gy2UKNbo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=a4C2Fs8UGlrB2N11RHoM/B6WvvqNCvbAznXL3/TO50XNGWocZ54oGZFDIPBkTQmK17hX17tc99ZVBF11PIiypKaOhKcWsEviBoZ9zEhqUVQeBfj4oSosERj9b0hBZww0p8PV4DTDRJaG03LF1XMqMvCxyQMvXYiVJSOwLVrw2uA= Received: by 10.86.90.2 with SMTP id n2mr4688498fgb.66.1201986141261; Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:02:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.86.33.18 with HTTP; Sat, 2 Feb 2008 13:02:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560802021302h49211bddi9f801426904e6be2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 18:02:21 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: lo questions In-Reply-To: <737b61f30802011636w6c8b6bc4hb34ab8bb417f1cf2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <737b61f30802011636w6c8b6bc4hb34ab8bb417f1cf2@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14154 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Fri, Feb 1, 2008 at 9:36 PM, Chris Capel wrote: > But I'm finding myself confused about the effects > of the proposal. Here's a section I'm rewriting. > > > So lo ci gerku means 'any/some of three dogs', or more simply, 'three dogs'. (As a conversational convention, we can assume that the "any/some" means "all" when the number is specified after lo.) ci lo gerku, however, means more like 'three of any/some dogs', i.e. three out of a group of dogs of unspecified size. That's still useful, but probably not what we have in mind when, in English, we say "three dogs". > > Is this accurate so far? The statement "lo ci gerku means 'any/some of three dogs'" doesn't sound very accurate to me. There is no 'any/some of' in the Lojban phrase, nor any 'all' involved either. It's like saying "{lo gerku} means 'a black or a white or some other colour, male or female, one year old or two years old or of some other age dog'". None of that is part of {lo} and neither is any quantifier. >Now here's where I'm confused. If "lo ci > gerku" is the best equivalent of "three dogs", then wouldn't we expect > "ci gerku" to also mean "three dogs"? And yet, according to the gadri > proposal[3], "ci gerku" means "ci lo gerku", or "three of some dogs". > That seems backwards to me. {ci [lo] gerku} is not very meaningful by itself. An outer quantifier is an operator, and it needs a full bridi to operate on. {ci [lo] gerku cu broda} means that among the referents of {lo gerku}, i.e. among dogs, there are three and no more than three that satisfy the predicate {... broda}. Inner quantifiers are not operators. {lo ci gerku} is all by itself a complete meaningful expression. It's a sumti, with one or more referents. When we use it in a sentence we will be saying something about those referents. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.