From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Feb 03 18:01:33 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 03 Feb 2008 18:01:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JLqeJ-00037X-Ul for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 03 Feb 2008 18:01:33 -0800 Received: from dsl081-066-183.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net ([64.81.66.183] helo=pinfu.digitalkingdom.org) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JLpzc-0000y7-Io for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:19:32 -0800 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.169]) by pinfu.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JLkja-0003fv-VJ for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 03 Feb 2008 11:42:35 -0800 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id m2so1436146uge.28 for ; Sun, 03 Feb 2008 11:42:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=BmnNareTxLRc0Din4AriykRsXy+XRIXesMQW3eLGbpU=; b=tLWD0D/jgIx4EAr6sQCDnwdrSvSCCDS2BD1O2Ei64RDg7FBb9MCYYqxW1pFQuN/bNJGGDdOJgfhJolauosWxNUCUjoYmxjUEMJ0dkl7ONTGoozhC9NEm9luD3yzwq7t5UNE6z8kczHElAQbU1KbIbOfqWFxhhtciW58LZ9GulTc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ska/BemxY04uj8XJcQO5XGP8tB0NKaxByx0opIUen2d2PdE1EssP0bgRj6yCIzQ+tCReTCSrNUaAtM9XM0CSpjk3UWzMIrD95iLJkb55+9l36Bp8/IKeP1d7kjX9HkoYMKkcOhvzRHCPhDFotCPXanfR23taPy2Xq3l3fXUMwt8= Received: by 10.67.19.9 with SMTP id w9mr1073806ugi.86.1202063960038; Sun, 03 Feb 2008 10:39:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.86.33.18 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Feb 2008 10:39:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560802031039s348b5caco36022d32efeeaff4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 15:39:20 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: lo questions In-Reply-To: <20080202171948.7lyx8d18so84ooos@webmail.ixkey.info> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <737b61f30802011636w6c8b6bc4hb34ab8bb417f1cf2@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560802021302h49211bddi9f801426904e6be2@mail.gmail.com> <20080202171948.7lyx8d18so84ooos@webmail.ixkey.info> X-Spam-Score: 0.7 X-Spam-Score-Int: 7 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14157 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Sat, Feb 2, 2008 at 10:19 PM, wrote: > > The outer qualifier identifies how > many out of the identified set were in the relation described; it > relates the understood sumti to the bridi being constructed. More or less. But consider: ro lo nixli cu ponse re lo gerku .i ro lo gerku cu xekri Each girl owns two dogs. All the dogs are black. la djan na ponse re lo gerku John does not own two dogs. In neither of those cases are we claiming that two dogs are involved in the relation described. In fact we are not saying how many dogs are involved. The information given by {re} can only be understood in the context of the whole bridi. It tells us how the referents of {lo gerku} are quantitatively distributed in their relationship with the referents of other arguments of the bridi, but we need to know what all the other operators involved are (negations, logical connectives, other outer quantifiers) in order to understand the contribution of {re}. > It seems to me that every time you take a slice with the outer > quantifier, you are in fact creating another coherent referent, which > might be adding to the confusion! Sometimes, but not "every time". When no negations or other quantifiers get in the way, saying how many do something may be taken as an indirect way of selecting those very ones that do get counted, and thus establishing a new set of referents, but that does not happen automatically every time that an outer quantifier is used. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.