From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat Feb 02 13:04:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 33017 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2008 21:04:08 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.97) by m57.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Feb 2008 21:04:08 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mail6.sea5.speakeasy.net) (69.17.117.8) by mta18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Feb 2008 21:04:08 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 20461 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2008 21:04:08 -0000 X-Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 2 Feb 2008 21:04:08 -0000 X-Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JLPWw-0008Iv-QH for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:04:07 -0800 X-Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JLPWZ-0008Gu-R9; Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:03:48 -0800 X-Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:02:28 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JLPVL-0008Go-Jt for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:02:28 -0800 X-Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.152]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JLPVH-0008GY-3P for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:02:27 -0800 X-Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id e12so1399516fga.0 for ; Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:02:21 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.86.90.2 with SMTP id n2mr4688498fgb.66.1201986141261; Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:02:21 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.86.33.18 with HTTP; Sat, 2 Feb 2008 13:02:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560802021302h49211bddi9f801426904e6be2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 18:02:21 -0300 In-Reply-To: <737b61f30802011636w6c8b6bc4hb34ab8bb417f1cf2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <737b61f30802011636w6c8b6bc4hb34ab8bb417f1cf2@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14154 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 69.17.117.8 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: lo questions X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=j1LrNUeLPCwQHrOSWXE5DeRRXaEMZBF5ElldY0umOzAmpBKgdw X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 28638 On Fri, Feb 1, 2008 at 9:36 PM, Chris Capel wrote: > But I'm finding myself confused about the effects > of the proposal. Here's a section I'm rewriting. > > > So lo ci gerku means 'any/some of three dogs', or more simply, 'three dogs'. (As a conversational convention, we can assume that the "any/some" means "all" when the number is specified after lo.) ci lo gerku, however, means more like 'three of any/some dogs', i.e. three out of a group of dogs of unspecified size. That's still useful, but probably not what we have in mind when, in English, we say "three dogs". > > Is this accurate so far? The statement "lo ci gerku means 'any/some of three dogs'" doesn't sound very accurate to me. There is no 'any/some of' in the Lojban phrase, nor any 'all' involved either. It's like saying "{lo gerku} means 'a black or a white or some other colour, male or female, one year old or two years old or of some other age dog'". None of that is part of {lo} and neither is any quantifier. >Now here's where I'm confused. If "lo ci > gerku" is the best equivalent of "three dogs", then wouldn't we expect > "ci gerku" to also mean "three dogs"? And yet, according to the gadri > proposal[3], "ci gerku" means "ci lo gerku", or "three of some dogs". > That seems backwards to me. {ci [lo] gerku} is not very meaningful by itself. An outer quantifier is an operator, and it needs a full bridi to operate on. {ci [lo] gerku cu broda} means that among the referents of {lo gerku}, i.e. among dogs, there are three and no more than three that satisfy the predicate {... broda}. Inner quantifiers are not operators. {lo ci gerku} is all by itself a complete meaningful expression. It's a sumti, with one or more referents. When we use it in a sentence we will be saying something about those referents. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.