From lojban-out@lojban.org Sun Feb 03 18:22:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 26644 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2008 02:22:47 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.97) by m50.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Feb 2008 02:22:47 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mail8.sea5.speakeasy.net) (69.17.117.10) by mta18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Feb 2008 02:22:47 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 8749 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2008 02:22:46 -0000 X-Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail8.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 4 Feb 2008 02:22:46 -0000 X-Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JLqyo-0004lD-2W for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 03 Feb 2008 18:22:44 -0800 X-Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JLqyA-0004cf-JP; Sun, 03 Feb 2008 18:22:07 -0800 X-Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 03 Feb 2008 18:21:19 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JLqxP-0004c7-19 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 03 Feb 2008 18:21:16 -0800 X-Received: from dsl081-066-183.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net ([64.81.66.183] helo=pinfu.digitalkingdom.org) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JLq3m-00019B-53 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:23:52 -0800 X-Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.155]) by pinfu.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JLjk2-0004t4-8c for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 03 Feb 2008 10:38:58 -0800 X-Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id e12so1676103fga.0 for ; Sun, 03 Feb 2008 10:38:52 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.86.26.11 with SMTP id 11mr5652576fgz.74.1202060401137; Sun, 03 Feb 2008 09:40:01 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.86.33.18 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Feb 2008 09:40:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560802030940r450df460o2bd7146d1ae9c1dd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 14:40:01 -0300 In-Reply-To: <737b61f30802021359v5d296490yd3d868fba7c44f14@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <737b61f30802011636w6c8b6bc4hb34ab8bb417f1cf2@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560802021302h49211bddi9f801426904e6be2@mail.gmail.com> <737b61f30802021359v5d296490yd3d868fba7c44f14@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.7 X-Spam-Score-Int: 7 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14158 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 69.17.117.10 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: lo questions X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=JCZUh2HsLLT3t1KjD84f08FOjR__vN223D3AgbxSSeX1ahwgwQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 28642 On Sat, Feb 2, 2008 at 6:59 PM, Chris Capel wrote: > On Feb 2, 2008 3:02 PM, Jorge Llambías wrote: > > > > The statement "lo ci gerku means 'any/some of three dogs'" doesn't sound > > very accurate to me. There is no 'any/some of' in the Lojban phrase, nor any > > 'all' involved either. > > I got "any/some" straight from the definition of lo in the BPFK > proposal: "The resulting expression refers generically to *any or > some* individual or individuals that fit as the first argument of the > selbri." But that's not the same thing. {la djan} may refer to the writer of CLL, but it does not mean "the writer of CLL". In the BPFK definition the English words "any or some" are being used as part of an explanation, not given as the meaning of some Lojban expression. That a given expression refers to some individual that fits as an argument of a selbri does not imply that it means "some individual that fits as an argument ...". A statement like "lo ci gerku means 'any/some of three dogs'" introduces exactly the problem that xorlo was meant to get us away from, the idea that {lo} carries an implicit quantifier with it. > > {ci [lo] gerku} is not very meaningful by itself. An outer quantifier is an > > operator, and it needs a full bridi to operate on. > > So when LFB says > > For example, {ci le gerku} means 'three of the dogs', while {le ci > gerku} means 'the three dogs.' > > it's actually being misleading? Perhaps I don't understand gadri well > enough to try to present a simplification. I don't have much of a problem with that wording for {le}, but in the case of {lo} both {ci lo gerku} and {lo ci gerku} can correspond to English "three dogs", and they are not logically equivalent. So to understand the difference it is not enough to give the English gloss, it is necessary to understand what a quantifier does in predicate logic, to see why {ci [any-bare-sumti]} is a quantifier expression, while {lo ci ...} is not. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.