From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Feb 01 16:39:42 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 32988 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2008 00:39:41 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.96) by m43.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Feb 2008 00:39:41 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net) (69.17.117.9) by mta17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Feb 2008 00:39:41 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 12758 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2008 00:39:41 -0000 X-Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 2 Feb 2008 00:39:40 -0000 X-Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JL6Px-000099-SB for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 01 Feb 2008 16:39:38 -0800 X-Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JL6Ov-0008U5-MK; Fri, 01 Feb 2008 16:38:37 -0800 X-Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 01 Feb 2008 16:37:00 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JL6NP-0008Tz-C3 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 01 Feb 2008 16:36:59 -0800 X-Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.176]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JL6NK-0008St-V3 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 01 Feb 2008 16:36:59 -0800 X-Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id b50so1426685pyh.30 for ; Fri, 01 Feb 2008 16:36:48 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.142.245.10 with SMTP id s10mr2647542wfh.186.1201912607949; Fri, 01 Feb 2008 16:36:47 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.142.193.17 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 16:36:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <737b61f30802011636w6c8b6bc4hb34ab8bb417f1cf2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 18:36:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14149 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: pdf23ds@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 69.17.117.9 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "Chris Capel" From: "Chris Capel" Reply-To: pdf23ds@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] lo questions X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=Q7lKG3Io3KWf0EpShweJRx7NORkKIkeTNQfG3wunTEJ4UC1oZQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 28633 I'm rewriting LFB ch 4.2[1] to assume the acceptance of the BPFK gadri section[2] as it currently stands. I think this will make the section much, much clearer. But I'm finding myself confused about the effects of the proposal. Here's a section I'm rewriting. > So lo ci gerku means 'any/some of three dogs', or more simply, 'three dogs'. (As a conversational convention, we can assume that the "any/some" means "all" when the number is specified after lo.) ci lo gerku, however, means more like 'three of any/some dogs', i.e. three out of a group of dogs of unspecified size. That's still useful, but probably not what we have in mind when, in English, we say "three dogs". Is this accurate so far? Now here's where I'm confused. If "lo ci gerku" is the best equivalent of "three dogs", then wouldn't we expect "ci gerku" to also mean "three dogs"? And yet, according to the gadri proposal[3], "ci gerku" means "ci lo gerku", or "three of some dogs". That seems backwards to me. Chris Capel [1] http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less4articles.html= [2] http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=BPFK%20Section%3A%20gadri [3] "When an outer quantifier is used without an inner quantifier, lo can be omitted."[2] -- "What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?" -- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet) To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.