From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Mar 29 09:54:25 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JfeK0-00015C-S0 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:54:25 -0700 Received: from eastrmmtao106.cox.net ([68.230.240.48]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JfeJv-00014i-1f for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:54:24 -0700 Received: from eastrmimpo03.cox.net ([68.1.16.126]) by eastrmmtao106.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20080329165413.ISKI15722.eastrmmtao106.cox.net@eastrmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 12:54:13 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.101] ([72.192.234.183]) by eastrmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id 74u41Z00H3y5FKc024u5TC; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 12:54:12 -0400 Message-ID: <47EE73AF.9040905@lojban.org> Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 12:51:59 -0400 From: Bob LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: the illogic of Lojban References: <47BDD838.2060308@perpetuum-immobile.de> <527c832e0802221325s21201601j1bd24b365107cd7@mail.gmail.com> <47BF4559.4070303@perpetuum-immobile.de> <527c832e0802222040o139bbfc9taf7baef1b99ebb64@mail.gmail.com> <20080329014920.dm1qilf2o8k40gwg@webmail.ixkey.info> In-Reply-To: <20080329014920.dm1qilf2o8k40gwg@webmail.ixkey.info> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14267 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list mungojelly@ixkey.info wrote: > Newbies constantly innocently ask questions > that raise unresolved issues, even completely unexplored questions. More importantly, they often ask them in ways that suggest that they don't really understand what they are asking. > This has historically been a language-invention society, not a > language-education society, and naturally when interesting questions > are raised people voice a cacophony of opinions, but naturally it's > offputting to a newbie if what seems like a perfectly simple > question (and what in a finished language would be perfectly a > simple question) cannot get a simple answer. I think that even in finished languages, these aren't simple questions. Usually the non-simple questions have to do with translation. Translation between languages is a deep subject, prone to error. One wants to be sure that one understands the speaker's intent, and sometimes the speaker hasn't really thought about their intent - especially with usages that are idiomatic. Moreover, if we are a teaching society, we have to give explanations and not just simple answers. Explaining the reasoning can be long-winded and complex, and if you oversimplify the explanation then you aren't teaching. > That's inescapable, > though; many questions really cannot yet be answered well or > answered at all; Lojban's not done. But it is done, at least for purposes of answering beginners. All questions can be answered. The answers might not satisfy non-beginners, but then that is true of answers about every language. The real problem is that no one in the community has any real expertise in language education, and from what I've seen, most of us who have studied other languages are atypical, so that what works for us often doesn't work for others. > None of this excuses us as a community from overcoming such obstacles. > To me an obvious first step is to draw a bright line between > inward-facing language design (tinkering, experimentation, > exploration), and outward-facing simplification and education. I think that was part of the idea behind the "beginners list". > That's > right, we should lower ourselves to the lie of simplification; don't > respond to a simple question with a list of exceptions. The problem is identifying what "the simple question" is. I believe also > that we ought to establish a taboo against unsolicited corrections: if > someone says "mi cilre la lojban." (I learn Lojban, incorrectly > phrased), we should say "mi gleki lo nu do cilre fi la lojban." (I'm > happy you're learning about Lojban), positive reenforcement and > providing a good model, not "Lojban can't be in the second place of > cilre! I want to avoid correcting you on this, but one can name anything %^) But I agree with your strategy. > We should also work on creating explicit structures to help ease new > people into the language. That is one reason why, in my early writings, I always provided literal as well as colloquial translations of all my texts. > One which seems like a nobrainer to me is to > indicate to newbies which words (for instance, which of the gismu) to > learn first, The gismu list has two built in suggested orders out in columns 155-160. One is the order I designed into the original unfinished textbook, which has a number 1 to a for lessons 1-9 and 10+ followed by a letter which grouped the words in each lesson. The second is a word usage frequency (sort descending, obviously). > and then write & speak to newbies with a heavy emphasis on those words. Outside the beginners list, who writes and speaks specifically to newbies? Generally we are writing for the larger audience. > I've been working on creating that sort of structure to > help newbies into the language, and I've found it a surprising amount > of work. I'll agree with that, having tried it. > Still, it's a shame that such things haven't been anyone's > priority for so many years. They were my priority, but I simply didn't have the needed skills. > It's only very recently that we've even > had rudimentary things like simple illustrated books or vocabulary > lists with pictures. I am not an artist. Copyright on illustrations is tricky. LLG can't publish anything using clipart unless we know that the pictures are legally free for such use. Given that our early history was tied up in intellectual property law, we have been sensitized to this issue. What someone does on their own web page is their own business, though. >> The much commoner (if less "superior") paradigm for community access >> on the >> internet is the web based forum. > > There is, BTW, a perfectly active Lojban web forum: > > http://community.livejournal.com/lojban/ > > There's been a trickle of activity there forever, and I don't know why > it's not taken seriously by the community. I don't do web forums; I don't like the interface. Email and newsgroups only. For a time the wiki itself was a sort of web-based forum, with dozens of people making changes to a variety of pages every day. But it eventually got so large that no one could keep track of what was changing. It also didn't involve those of us who didn't wiki. The community is large but not so large that we can split our efforts into too many media when people don't have time to follow them. As it is, apparently great gobs of discussion have apparently taken place on IRC over the years, but never when I logged in so I gave up on it. > I'm an active Livejournal > user myself anyway, so I'm not really aware how hard it is to get an > account or whatever, is that the problem? I have don't really even understand what Livejournal is, even. It sounded like a blogging thing, and that is the impression I've had when I've looked at Matt's. Some of us old-fogeys just don't really understand the charm of blogging, and I've never looked into any of these online interchanges, including the more well known Facebook and Myspace. As for getting an account, I find it a pain to open up yet another account with yet another password that I will forget before the next time I get around to accessing it. I avoid doing anything that makes me fill out a registration form. > Anyway I always follow that group I don't follow anything that doesn't pump into my email box or a Usenet newsgroup. By the time I get done with those two, I don't have time to look for more things to interact with. > It's about time that Lojbanistan was larger than a couple of > mailing lists, IMHO. It is larger. But the mailing lists are the only place where you will reach a relatively large audience, and a relatively large percentage of the community. > If people would recognize the effort that's been > put into establishing the Lojban Livejournal community, and consider it > a real part of Lojbanistan, that would be a good start. I consider it a real part of Lojbanistan. But I don't have time to regularly check yet another place for Lojban interaction, especially one that requires me to log in in order to participate. I have the wiki and IRC and SecondLife as three other known places that I can do the same on, all of which are also part of Lojbanistan. But with limited time to only follow one forum, the email variety works best for me. > There's still a few missing links between newbies and that living > language which is just starting to emerge. I see newbies all the time > on IRC being told not to take any of the learning materials seriously > because they're all out of date! That must be pretty discouraging. It is also wrong. The official learning materials embody the official language. Some people are playing a political game to make their experimental and proposed usages become official by disparaging the official stuff. And of course even if they win, we don't see many people rewriting the learning materials to reflect the proposals, and they won't really be part of the language for most of us until someone rewrites CLL, etc. to reflect them. lojbab To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.