From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Apr 01 12:40:51 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 01 Apr 2008 12:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JgmLj-0005IL-QE for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 01 Apr 2008 12:40:51 -0700 Received: from owlserv2.mail.rice.edu ([128.42.58.140]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JgmLb-0005Hl-Vq for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 01 Apr 2008 12:40:51 -0700 Received: by owlserv2.mail.rice.edu (Postfix, from userid 20515) id 92A6B13433; Tue, 1 Apr 2008 14:40:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from netscaler2.rice.edu (netscaler2.rice.edu [128.42.206.5]) by webmail.mail.rice.edu (IMP) with HTTP for ; Tue, 1 Apr 2008 14:40:42 -0500 Message-ID: <1207078842.47f28fba60660@webmail.mail.rice.edu> Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 14:40:42 -0500 From: mls1@rice.edu To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Chinese, English and Spanish etymology of Lojban (was: Re: gismu etymology) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14280 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mls1@rice.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Quoting mublin : > [Repost in ASCII] > [snip] > However, my use of the terms seems to be in accordance with the > definition given on Wikipedia [2]: > > > Falling (or descending) diphthongs start with a vowel of higher > > prominence (higher pitch or louder) and end in a vowel with less > > prominence, like /aI_^/ in "eye", while rising (or ascending) > > diphthongs begin with a less prominent vowel and end with a more > > prominent vowel, like /I_^a/ in "yard". > > You also wrote: > > > All the falling diphthongs *end* with high vowels, and all the > > rising diphthongs listed *begin* with a high vowel. This seems > > backwards to me [snip] > > Now I am confused. I thought ``ai, ei, oi, au'' (falling diphthongs in > my terms) start with a vowel of higher prominence and end on a > semivowel; whereas in the ``ia'' and ``ua'' series it is the other way > round. > > [1] http://lojban.org/publications/level0/brochure/phonol.html > [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphthong > > -- > mu'o mi'e mublin. > What I was referring to as "high" and "low" vowels is not the same as the difference between a vowel and a semivowel (or glide). What I was referring to refers instead to the position of the tongue in the mouth when pronouncing the vowel. The vowels i and u are thus, in this system "high" vowels (which others here are calling "close" vowels because the mouth is more closed) and a is a "low" vowel (often also called an "open" vowel). From what I can tell, though, the classification of diphthongs described in the wikipedia quote you gave is instead based on sonority. Vowels are more sonorous than glides (semivowels) which are more sonorous than liquids (r and l) which are more sonorous than nasals (m and n) which are more sonorous than fricatives (s z f v) which are more sonorous than stops (p t k b d g). (I did not include all consonants of each category.) So if the "rising" and "falling" in a diphthong is referring to the sonority, you would get the classifications in the wikipedia quote you gave. But if it is referring to the position of the tongue in pronouncing each sound, you would get the reverse. mu'omi'e skaryzgik. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.