From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Oct 01 14:30:13 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 01 Oct 2008 14:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Kl9Gv-0003qt-2S for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 01 Oct 2008 14:30:13 -0700 Received: from narnia.blumen-schwarz.de ([80.190.195.21]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Kl9Gq-0003dG-6n for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 01 Oct 2008 14:30:12 -0700 Received: from wh28.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de ([134.96.48.59] helo=nicte.localnet) by narnia.blumen-schwarz.de with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1Kl9Ge-0005KW-PP for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 01 Oct 2008 23:30:00 +0200 From: Roman Naumann To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: drani a'o pinka zo pa jo'u zo su'o Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 23:29:19 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.10.1 (Linux/2.6.26-1-amd64; KDE/4.1.1; x86_64; ; ) References: <200809242052.08673.eldrikdo@gmail.com> <925d17560809261222j48b8220s2e72c973fae34a66@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60809290803j52b4c52cy2216b421c5c8e123@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <96f789a60809290803j52b4c52cy2216b421c5c8e123@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary-00=_vu+4I9gr6Z95Qe0" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200810012329.19647.eldrikdo@gmail.com> X-Spam_score: -2.5 X-Spam_score_int: -24 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: ------------- Start der SpamAssassin Auswertung --------------- Bei Fragen dazu bitte das Forum life.d.cvmx verwenden! Details der Inhaltsanalyse: (-2.5 Punkte, 5.0 benoetigt) -1.8 ALL_TRUSTED Nachricht wurde nur über vertrauenswürdige Rechner weitergeleitet 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: Nachricht enthält HTML -0.7 BAYES_20 BODY: Spamwahrscheinlichkeit nach Bayes-Test: 5-20% [score: 0.1191] ---------------- Ende der SpamAssassin Auswertung ----------------- X-Spam-Score: 1.2 X-Spam-Score-Int: 12 X-Spam-Bar: + X-archive-position: 14812 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: eldrikdo@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --Boundary-00=_vu+4I9gr6Z95Qe0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday 29 September 2008 17:03:07 Michael Turniansky wrote: > > .i lo do te sitna cu na srana lo me zo na poi selbri tcita .i ko tcidu > > zoi zoi > > ri ba'e du lo pagbu poi mi sitna ke'a .i na go'i .i ri vasru gi'enai du vau lo pagbu poi do sitna ke'a .i pe'u ko tcidu zoi zoi Let us consider the English sentence 11.1) Some children do not go to school. We cannot express this directly with ``na''; the apparently obvious translation 11.2) su'oda poi verba na klama su'ode poi ckule At-least-one X which-are child(ren) [false] go-to at-least-one Y which-are school(s). which converts to the external negation: 11.3) naku zo'u su'oda poi verba cu klama su'ode poi ckule It is false that some which are children go-to some which are schools. All children don't go to some school (not just some children). Lojban provides a negation form which more closely emulates natural language negation. This involves putting ``naku'' before the selbri, instead of a ``na''. ``naku'' is clearly a contradictory negation, given its parallel with prenex bridi negation. Using ``naku'', Example 11.1 can be expressed zoi .i mi zgana loza'i do to'e drani krici lodu'u lote pilno bezo na cu mutce simsa lote pilno be zo'oi not -- mu'o mi'e nam --Boundary-00=_vu+4I9gr6Z95Qe0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Monday 29 September 2008 17:03:07 Michael Turniansky wrote:

> > .i lo do te sitna cu na srana lo me zo na poi selbri tcita .i ko tcidu

> > zoi zoi <http://jbotcan.org/cllc/c16/s11.html>

> ri ba'e du lo pagbu poi mi sitna ke'a

.i na go'i

.i ri vasru gi'enai du vau lo pagbu poi do sitna ke'a

.i pe'u ko tcidu zoi zoi

Let us consider the English sentence

11.1) Some children do not go to school.

We cannot express this directly with ``na''; the apparently obvious translation

11.2)    su'oda poi verba

        na klama su'ode poi ckule

    At-least-one X which-are child(ren)

        [false] go-to at-least-one Y which-are school(s).

which converts to the external negation:

11.3)    naku zo'u su'oda poi verba

        cu klama su'ode poi ckule

    It is false that some which are children

        go-to some which are schools.

    All children don't go to some school

        (not just some children).

Lojban provides a negation form which more closely emulates natural language negation. This involves putting ``naku'' before the selbri, instead of a ``na''. ``naku'' is clearly a contradictory negation, given its parallel with prenex bridi negation. Using ``naku'', Example 11.1 can be expressed

zoi

.i mi zgana loza'i do to'e drani krici lodu'u lote pilno bezo na cu mutce simsa lote pilno be zo'oi not

mu'o mi'e nam

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