From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Nov 09 04:40:36 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 09 Nov 2008 04:40:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Kz9al-0004Q8-VV for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 09 Nov 2008 04:40:36 -0800 Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.152]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Kz9ag-0004PO-CO for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 09 Nov 2008 04:40:35 -0800 Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id e12so2233094fga.0 for ; Sun, 09 Nov 2008 04:40:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=+lAW8SFO+qHycsH7dh40oBxBVRJEtC0/1XLeY8GgKV8=; b=hpojc/g/IANWsVjZrps3X/RluAIasyU7NphzAJGGsn2cyr0st+x5HfCcVWgqHvvY2f 69PKXuacwtX8oLOxbFKspx3o3Twc3ZmFYj/fZO/WQQpkGYrHO6IfndgDZzQZWDKpSw+2 NeaiFI1HWBSNZVEk0xeHYFN9mnn+6jVD16t8A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=fhGlohb5RqdJNlhQ5uqMbsR3O4HsCK8lqOQbSencf6MHgqqVvlPDMS1GY88m2EHQXP Ia8kUT2J8eTmZccQIIqTLEzxHTvxExiVLaojyJMLUSBS5iTTvFY4PT6DnhIMLIBHbwbx Ek504q39/FgKh9wrenDFf7HBGLUNUEU2QH+lo= Received: by 10.103.244.19 with SMTP id w19mr2980883mur.134.1226234428098; Sun, 09 Nov 2008 04:40:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.103.199.18 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Nov 2008 04:40:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4de8c3930811090440v24d72c48v326854cf81cba195@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 13:40:28 +0100 From: tijlan To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: le gusta co minde mutce In-Reply-To: <200811082154.23708.phma@phma.optus.nu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_65861_23028918.1226234428077" References: <2f91285f0810260835h78654a7dr11b5b5c0957bce70@mail.gmail.com> <200811072307.26737.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4de8c3930811080122n7f91eea3v53fc4cce02d4d343@mail.gmail.com> <200811082154.23708.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 6c701879b979563e X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14967 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: picos.picos@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list ------=_Part_65861_23028918.1226234428077 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline 2008/11/9 Pierre Abbat > On Saturday 08 November 2008 04:22:48 tijlan wrote: > > 2008/11/8 Pierre Abbat > > > > > On Sunday 26 October 2008 11:35:57 tijlan wrote: > > > > no sai zo'e ga'i vi cipni jonai vlilydanlu > > > > > > "zo'e ga'i", IIRR, means that the speaker feels haughtiness toward > zo'e, > > > which > > > doesn't make much sense. > > > > Oh, it seems I got it wrong all the way. This "zo'e" should be an object > of > > the speaker's contempt. On the contrary, the first message on the first > > door, which I started with "doi ro do ga'i", should reflect the honorific > > speech. So "zo'e ga'inai" is the right one? > > I'm not sure which way "ga'i" goes, but it seems strange to honor or > contempt > a word that's just a placeholder. It's a placeholder for the concept "something which are bird(s) and/or beast(s)" (I changed "jonai" to "ja"). When the speaker utters the word "zo'e", he is having this concept or image in mind. And this image provokes him into feeling a contempt. So, at least on the speaker's part, it's not unnatural if a UI is put right after a word the referent of which may not be immediately obvious to the reader. After all, every word is a word. If "zo'e ga'i cipni" is meaningless, so must be "le .iu cipni" or "le cipni .iu" too, since both "le" and "cipni" are words. > > Originally "kemono", it should translate to something like "beast" in > > English. It's meant to be a contrast to "cipni" in fierceness. The > speaker > > is emphasizing the absence of objects to hunt by referring to a wide > range > > from "birds" to "beasts". A deer can be somewhere between the two > > polarities. > > > Hmm, there are vlilycpi also, such as eagles and shrikes. It depends on the fauna in which the speaker/narrator is contextualized, or the epistemological condition thereby. As for "swan", for example, it's not necessary for British people to always assume "there are white ones and black ones", since black swans are uncommon in Britain. Likewise, it need not be the case that the characters in the story anticipate the existence of "vlilycpi" in this particular region of mountains if they already know that such kind of birds is anyway very uncommon in the region. I'm not sure what > word to use for "kemono", but "bi'i' may make sense between them. If that can increase the readability, I'm pleased to fix it. > > "Yama-dori" ("mountain-bird"), or "copper pheasant" ( > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_Pheasant). I wanted to avoid using > > "cipni", which is too general while "copper phesant" is specific enough, > > and which might cause a confusion with the earlier "cipni", the one the > > guys are looking for in the mountain. > > > > Any suggestion? > > > "ma'arjipci" is good. Could you check how wide a taxon it should refer to > (just the Copper Pheasant, or the genus, or any pheasant) and add it to > jbovlaste? I'll do the same with "fi'orxruki", which I made up many moons > ago. Both "jipci" and "ma'arjipci" are of the family Phasianidae, the latter's particularity being the genus Syrmaticus and the species Syrmaticus Soemmerringii. I couldn't confirm whether the quality "ma'a-" should apply to Syrmaticus, so I defined "ma'arjipci" as Syrmaticus Soemmerringii: http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/ma%27arjipci Isn't a corresponding Latin/Greek fu'ivla also desirable? > > Is "sa'a" within "lu ... li'u" considered to be an actual part of the > > quoted utterance? I think not. If something can be skipped over like > that, > > so should "sa'ei" be too, shouldn't it? And it's an experimental cmavo; > > what may be obvious to humans may not already be so to jbofi'e. > > > "sa'a" marks the previous word as not being part of the quoted > utterance;"sa'ei" marks the next word as being an ideophone. You could > say "sa'ei sa'a niaaon.kuaan.gorgor", but that sounds like the dog uttered > an > ideophone and forgot to mark it as such. The dog was just making noises. So > I > think that dropping "sa'a" is better. In the sentences that are bare > quotes, > without "le co'e cu cusku", "sa'ei" should be left in. Can't a word make itself editorial or metalinguistic? "sei" already seems to do that as in "lu sei la alis pensi mi zvati ma li'u"? If "sei" can automatically be not part of the original quotation, why not "sa'ei" too? (BTW the sound is meant to be of the cats, who have been hiding in that last room and are now being attacked by the dogs.) mu'o mi'e tijlan ------=_Part_65861_23028918.1226234428077 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline 2008/11/9 Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu>
On Saturday 08 November 2008 04:22:48 tijlan wrote:
> 2008/11/8 Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu>
>
> > On Sunday 26 October 2008 11:35:57 tijlan wrote:
> > > no sai zo'e ga'i vi cipni jonai vlilydanlu
> >
> > "zo'e ga'i", IIRR, means that the speaker feels haughtiness toward zo'e,
> > which
> > doesn't make much sense.
>
> Oh, it seems I got it wrong all the way. This "zo'e" should be an object of
> the speaker's contempt. On the contrary, the first message on the first
> door, which I started with "doi ro do ga'i", should reflect the honorific
> speech. So "zo'e ga'inai" is the right one?

I'm not sure which way "ga'i" goes, but it seems strange to honor or contempt
a word that's just a placeholder.

It's a placeholder for the concept "something which are bird(s) and/or beast(s)" (I changed "jonai" to "ja"). When the speaker utters the word "zo'e", he is having this concept or image in mind. And this image provokes him into feeling a contempt. So, at least on the speaker's part, it's not unnatural if a UI is put right after a word the referent of which may not be immediately obvious to the reader.

After all, every word is a word. If "zo'e ga'i cipni" is meaningless, so must be "le .iu cipni" or "le cipni .iu" too, since both "le" and "cipni" are words.

 
> Originally "kemono", it should translate to something like "beast" in
> English. It's meant to be a contrast to "cipni" in fierceness. The speaker
> is emphasizing the absence of objects to hunt by referring to a wide range
> from "birds" to "beasts". A deer can be somewhere between the two
> polarities.


Hmm, there are vlilycpi also, such as eagles and shrikes.

It depends on the fauna in which the speaker/narrator is contextualized, or the epistemological condition thereby. As for "swan", for example, it's not necessary for British people to always assume "there are white ones and black ones", since black swans are uncommon in Britain. Likewise, it need not be the case that the characters in the story anticipate the existence of "vlilycpi" in this particular region of mountains if they already know that such kind of birds is anyway very uncommon in the region.

I'm not sure what
word to use for "kemono", but "bi'i' may make sense between them.

If that can increase the readability, I'm pleased to fix it.

 
> "Yama-dori" ("mountain-bird"), or "copper pheasant" (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_Pheasant). I wanted to avoid using
> "cipni", which is too general while "copper phesant" is specific enough,
> and which might cause a confusion with the earlier "cipni", the one the
> guys are looking for in the mountain.
>
> Any suggestion?


"ma'arjipci" is good. Could you check how wide a taxon it should refer to
(just the Copper Pheasant, or the genus, or any pheasant) and add it to
jbovlaste? I'll do the same with "fi'orxruki", which I made up many moons
ago.

Both "jipci" and "ma'arjipci" are of the family Phasianidae, the latter's particularity being the genus Syrmaticus and the species Syrmaticus Soemmerringii. I couldn't confirm whether the quality "ma'a-" should apply to Syrmaticus, so I defined "ma'arjipci" as Syrmaticus Soemmerringii:

http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/ma%27arjipci

Isn't a corresponding Latin/Greek fu'ivla also desirable?

 
> Is "sa'a" within "lu ... li'u" considered to be an actual part of the
> quoted utterance? I think not. If something can be skipped over like that,
> so should "sa'ei" be too, shouldn't it? And it's an experimental cmavo;
> what may be obvious to humans may not already be so to jbofi'e.


"sa'a" marks the previous word as not being part of the quoted
utterance;"sa'ei" marks the next word as being an ideophone. You could
say "sa'ei sa'a niaaon.kuaan.gorgor", but that sounds like the dog uttered an
ideophone and forgot to mark it as such. The dog was just making noises. So I
think that dropping "sa'a" is better. In the sentences that are bare quotes,
without "le co'e cu cusku", "sa'ei" should be left in.

Can't a word make itself editorial or metalinguistic? "sei" already seems to do that as in "lu sei la alis pensi mi zvati ma li'u"? If "sei" can automatically be not part of the original quotation, why not "sa'ei" too?

(BTW the sound is meant to be of the cats, who have been hiding in that last room and are now being attacked by the dogs.)


mu'o mi'e tijlan

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