From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Nov 11 19:04:44 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:04:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1L0628-0007o5-Qu for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:04:44 -0800 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.187]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1L0624-0007ny-SZ for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:04:44 -0800 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 30so109000nfu.46 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:04:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=yX99mWvrGJbDQRuV8Q88xqCrNGfom90VwOBWCzKhUxs=; b=N5XCWDfSlvzdttxAWrl2WwGFsNQhy5/t/HeVR0GPjN0dW7PfZcnkZnKm6SIz5KtTBs vgOzptDnZ0bYZsEvPassNDckEUm1/u4Y6a5gmDkfCFfnRU6T9rXLi9j0PpkBS35MkEyw xsL7tbL1C/O685tySsaU8t+vdvEqXmhNWoOvw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references:x-google-sender-auth; b=cQHivoG+QJsX90ZYmuafKiMKvJdaqRruQy+xI0M+jz1AfWZZH6FtFfblkqEoHEiQ1n u1plrXqnBH5Ra12O1aCMnJ894MHbaHj+o7QY4yF3pgW5h4C85hmx73Fhi5vncb6vdySu LwSEMPEwiWGuYN15fuuoDQSjiiy8TKikcxVgo= Received: by 10.103.24.17 with SMTP id b17mr4986953muj.112.1226459078998; Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:04:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.103.199.18 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:04:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4de8c3930811111904s4868767ci5dff53f0cf140a24@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 04:04:38 +0100 From: tijlan To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: le gusta co minde mutce In-Reply-To: <16e4f29a0811111706t4e27477fu61c4e669360a1793@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <2f91285f0810260835h78654a7dr11b5b5c0957bce70@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560811100828k50ff608ehc6a5ae96446807ef@mail.gmail.com> <16e4f29a0811101556rfea6759k672dd011cecc09d1@mail.gmail.com> <16e4f29a0811101558j1799d99bj7900b70c0b55c6a@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930811101800r501676d5id975aa96c932c19b@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930811101800y7ede0d46vc027081f0bd1179f@mail.gmail.com> <16e4f29a0811101950t59fa46cfof4fd83489ddcd8fd@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930811110605u73597c74ye280491656add7e8@mail.gmail.com> <16e4f29a0811111706t4e27477fu61c4e669360a1793@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 236b8a7ab187a57d X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 15004 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: picos.picos@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list 2008/11/12 Elias Friedman : > "To buy butter, I go to the market" and "I go to the market to buy butter" > are fully synonymous. They are, linguistically. > The order of "to buy butter" and "I go to the market" > has no effect on the sentence's meaning. Right. My point was that their order is significant cognition-wise. A personal motive for the action "I go to the market" in this case is a cognitive phenomenon. The idea "to buy butter" can cognitively motivate the action "go to the market", just like other ideas such as "I need butter, and I have run out of butter" can. An established intentional idea can be internally influential enough to the point where it motivates you to do something without having you to question the original reason for that action. Imagine: You notice you have run out of butter. But you need butter. So you intend "to buy butter"; you establish this idea. Later, you remember your intention "I will buy butter", and *that* motivates you to go to the market. Here you are self-reflectively observing a state in which you once intended to buy butter. This state is now as objective an item as the state "I need butter, and I have run out of butter". If the latter state can be a motive, so can the former too. They are equaly contents of consciousness by which the agent can be motivated to go to the market. > "I am willing to buy butter" is not an intention; it is a personal > condition. An intention would be "I intend to buy butter". An intention is a personal condition. You intend something because you are cognitively/psychologically/neurologically conditioned in a particular way. You intend to buy butter because your personal (cognitive) condition is such that you realize you have run out of butter and you need it. Should the condition differ, your intention would differ. I don't see much point in drawing a line between "I am willing to buy butter" and "I intend to buy butter" for this matter. They are both statements about an intentional state of "I", and they can both be contents of consciousness by which, in a self-reflective manner, "I" can be motivated to do something. mu'o mi'e tijlan To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.