From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Dec 21 10:54:00 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 21 Dec 2008 10:54:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LETR9-0006L8-Rg for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 21 Dec 2008 10:54:00 -0800 Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.198.240]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LETR5-0006KL-19 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 21 Dec 2008 10:53:59 -0800 Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b17so1868628rvf.46 for ; Sun, 21 Dec 2008 10:53:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=x/0I/RGhode6kn6Z5aPETsdhXRTvk9p2/04FoVHvj/A=; b=nW4FzT5t4XRhCUBZn6DQarXazPQeBBMkW9Pj5MAqHBExj0Dhw09c2JiH1v/wbcOBca BEHfsf30IKCwacd1/8FYEorL3czB0i5JrMdIkGEXxMhR+JYVWZLYZhkRJQtH3hq0fhhQ ML6LaalDJ19KdRMsWwYQ4FxizqAcvaiy7EUr0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=Y+/V6aaNLeWInIVMZg116QbhtarfVi4VAv4xPZ1qFhjtCgoVGFns0nLlKsKZSMDaeh YOYgynG2RsU+9PIclCbQveNwYZ2f8hz4X3jClFPQKHY9e1DGw6Ci0AeS6tMEqJiHJT0o vBXkUVGe0lMIGC7+ec1QSRJ+LN1IiRulDu4HE= Received: by 10.141.36.10 with SMTP id o10mr2742976rvj.254.1229885633757; Sun, 21 Dec 2008 10:53:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.194.15 with HTTP; Sun, 21 Dec 2008 10:53:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560812211053s706275cak4ab4020e3d7b5185@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 15:53:53 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: About the negators In-Reply-To: <200812210615.23683.phma@phma.optus.nu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <101615.13333.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <96f789a60812191055s797c629bnf7e749e17902096d@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560812191115n270695d3j2b072ab530895f9f@mail.gmail.com> <200812210615.23683.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 15127 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 8:15 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > How's this for a definition of the na-rule?: > 1. Convert all conjunctions that connect two clauses (ijek) or bridi-tails > (gihek) to forethought. > 2. Move {na} which is not part of a conjunction as far as possible toward the > beginning of the sentence without jumping over a conjunction that connects > two clauses or bridi-tails, and replace it with {naku}. > e.g. su'oda na broda gi'e brode > ->su'oda ge na broda gi brode > ->su'oda ge naku broda gi brode It looks unambiguous, as far as I can tell. Of course it does maintain the unintuitive relationship between {su'o da na broda gi'e brode} and {su'o da na broda}. > su'oda nage broda gi brode > doesn't change, because {na} is part of the conjunction {nage}. {na} is not really part of the conjunction. Do you mean it is equivalent to: {su'o da na ku zo'u ge da broda gi da brode} or to {na ku su'o da zo'u ge da broda gi da brode}? A full specification of the rules would go something like this: We define an "atomic bridi" as a bridi that contains no bridi negations, no (outer) quantifiers, and no (logical) connectives. It corresponds to an atomic formula of pedicate logic. (In an atomic bridi, the order of arguments can be changed freely with SE and/or FA, without changing meaning). We define a "well formed bridi" (wfb), corresponding to well formed formulas of predicate logic, as follows: An atomic bridi is a wfb. A wfb preceded by {na ku zo'u} is a wfb. A wfb preceded by {ro da zo'u} is a wfb. (And the same for the other quantifiers.) Two wfb connected with {ge .. gi ...} give a wfb. (And the same for the other logical connectives.) Nothing else is a wfb. That is all that is required to express the wff's of first-order predicate logic, and the logical structure of a wfb is always clear. But Lojban provides some additional "shortcut" notations (negations and quantifiers moved out of the prenex and into the matrix of the bridi, and sumti and bridi-tail connectives) that are always equivalent to some wfb. The rules to transform a general bridi into wfb form are as follows: Step 1: write all afterthought connectives in forethought form. Step 2: going from left to right: (a) when a naku is found in the matrix, move to last place in the prenex of current bridi. (b) when a quantifier is found in the matrix, move to last place in the prenex of current bridi, leaving a copy of the variable in place in the matrix. (c) when a connective is found, expand to a full bridi connective, leaving a copies of the shared terms in each connected bridi (this may require introducing some goi ko'a or similar when the shared term is not already a variable.) (d1) when a na is found, move (as naku) to last place in the prenex of current bridi. (d2) when a na is found, move (as naku) to first place in the prenex of current bridi. Rule (d1) is what I propose, rule (d2) is what you propose. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.