From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Feb 16 02:30:38 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 16 Feb 2009 02:30:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LZ0kI-00026i-DK for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 02:30:38 -0800 Received: from mail-fx0-f20.google.com ([209.85.220.20]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LZ0kF-000268-LD for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 02:30:38 -0800 Received: by fxm13 with SMTP id 13so5792190fxm.10 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 02:30:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eOkzKP/dfY/HwqwbU/GfgUfOvz9hZ6J02lHFl5vhGYo=; b=psQbJKZoeqCFX2kttWusMBPxdrXOCxxOWi2qcMpTjQnBGh2cUkNWx/E14sb8itLdEB 4quB5IL4Rox1QAqq8o9kU/MeY6KGQMhCBarUr/JMazT9e+TD8Drls0JqohaitCuTOe6H xfSdKEDdDMt9S/05LqrY10T6fGBICf7K+xxHk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=ucznXN38MnDt/bqsOsjsvYzeMSOeGcWrtu2+lJAFRrwOvgCeNZLwTR3TrKk4hflsdS wMxEZPEqXXW1HXPQ47usnQrA0V/p/PQ6OzF7XgpUKuWMgsQiGmUbo0xrjOogIarEjG5x hRnFkkoC3trzz/x5NCR7QCGHaxNryZqbj/1Oo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.181.226.2 with SMTP id d2mr1906328bkr.204.1234780229039; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 02:30:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:30:29 +0100 Message-ID: <4de8c3930902160230x66606aaaxb94469b52675addc@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] nominative-accusative & ergative-absolutive From: tijlan To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 15316 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: pascal.akihiko@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Can it be said that Lojban is inclusive of both the nominative-accusative type (e.g. English, Japanese, Esperanto) and the ergative-absolutive type (e.g. Basque, Tibetan, Mayan)? Compare the following Basque-Esperanto-Lojban sentences: Gizon-a | etorri da. Vir-o | ekalvenis. lo nanmu | co'i/ba'o klama Gizon-ak | mutil-a | ikusi du. Vir-o | knab-on | vidis. lo nanmu | lo nanla | pu viska "-a" in Basque is the absolutive suffix, which is translated in Esperanto as the nominative suffix "-o". Then "-ak" is the ergative, translated in Esperanto again as the nominative, and this time the Basque absolutive "-a" becomes the accusative in Esperanto. Esperanto, because it runs on an explicit case system, cannot handle the ergative-absolutive languages without explicitly distorting their original typological quality. In Lojban, on the other hand, cases are not (at least morphologically) specified. It therefore buffers the difference between the nominative-accusative and ergative-absolutive languages. It allows a Basque/Tibetan/Mayan etc. speaker to communicate with an English/Japanese/Esperanto etc. speaker without being distracted at the aforementioned dissimilarity. pe'ipei mu'o mi'e tijlan To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.